Dating the Uniforms

[Dragon1]

We have seen a large variety of uniforms in the Wing Commander Universe over the entire run of the series. In modern armed forces there are many different uniforms that operate at the same time. Most Sci-Fi has there uniform for the period and then a new one totally replaces it. In Wing Commander though, we see some uniforms that last all throughout the series, even though every game has technically had a different uniform (different look). Here is my attempt to categorize them...

Pre-Wing Commander 1

TCN (and TCSF which was still using naval ranks at this time and may have been just an extension of the Navy)

Dark blue jacket with two columns of button centerline, rank depicted on shoulder epaulets as naval stripes. Turtle-neck shirt worn underneath. (Class-B duty fatigue, seen on CAPT. Sansky, CMDR. Gerald, and ADM. Tolwyn). This uniform was perhaps the pre-war uniform that remained in service until 2654, after the navy and the SF split, this uniform went out.

Dark blue (knit-looking) sweater colarless shirt with shoulder and arm band-pads (Class-C duty uniform as seen on Blair, Maniac, etc...) Again, most likely from pre-2634 to 2654.

Wing Commander 1-2

The TCSF appeared to wear a dark blue jacket with dark blue trousers, high boots, gold bar over the shoulder straps and rank depicted as bar/oak leaf/eagle/star on the ends of the shoulder strap (COL. Halcyon, Doomesday, Shadow, as well as the other pilots from WC2)

Pilots from WC1 seem to wear this uniform except for a khaki jacket instead of dark blue.

The naval variant is a dark gray as seen in Wing Commander Privateer (ADM. Terrel)

This uniform would appear to be in service from 2654-2669.

Wing Commander 3

The duty uniforms on the Victory appear to be an informal, perhaps deep space operations uniform. This uniform is similar to the pre-war class-C that I had listed above, and may have replaced it in 2654. The only difference between the naval and space force variants is the colors of their pippings. Naval had silver, while Space Force had gold. This uniform most likely came about around 2654 and lasted until the 70s or early 80s.

Tolwyn's uniform had a dark blue jacket with silver pipping and dark grey trousers (very reminiscent of the WC2 naval uniform). Perhaps this was the admiral's variant of the Wing Commander 2 naval uniform.

Wing Commander 4

In WC4, the Naval uniform was much more formal. It consisted of a light blue jacket and trousers with silver pipping and high boots. Their were at least two variations, Tolwyn's jacket was full length, while Paulsen and Eisen's jacket was about waist level. Commodore Tolwyn in 2653 was seen wearing this same uniform (Wing Commander Academy), so it is safe to assume that it was in service all throughout the period, including past Wing Commander Prophecy.

The space force uniform and the marine uniform were also similar. The marine uniform was full length, like Tolwyn's, but the space force uniform appeared to be only partial length. The space force uniform was dark blue with black pipping and the marine uniform was brown with black pipping. Again, it may be safe to assume that these were semi-formal uniforms that had been around since at least 2653/2654.

Wing Commander Prophecy

The naval and space force uniforms were similar to each other in Prophecy. The naval uniform was sky blue with a closed collar, the space force uniform was dark blue (navy blue) with an open collar. This uniform may have replaced the WC3 deep space ops class-C.

Anything I missed?

[Dahan]

After reading this I had a looked at the games and some pics that I could find, there is a generally consistency and I don't think you missed anything out, however I have to sit down and go through everything bit by bit.
However off the top of my head, I am guessing that Flag Officers wear a complete different uniform because in wing commander 2 Tolwyn wore a white uniform I think, but I am not sure about that

[Sigmar Maximus]

Good review of the uniform, dude. Well done.

Keep in mind also that WC 3,4, and Prophecy were done, that there is only so much a production can spend on costumes and they did a good job at designing functional attire for the military setting that WC usually is.

[DyNaMiX]

I tend to think of it like this between Wing Commander 1-3. The current uniform replaces all of them.
The reason I say this is because the Academy series uniforms are very smiliar to a mix between 3 and 4. Now why would Tolwynn wear a nice Navy uniform through the Academy series then lose it up until 4?
Even in Wing Commander 2/Privateer, Navy Flag officers wore a white formal jacket instead of a blue jacket (as we saw with the Admiral's attache`).
Even the flightsuits in Academy contradict 1 and 2. They are the same as 3 and 4. The only difference is the helmet which I personally think resembles a cross between the first 2 games and the rest.


It just doesn't make sense to have one uniform during the academy, changing it again at the end of the series, changing it after the first game, changing it for the 2nd game, changing them drastically for the 3rd (only a year or so after the 2nd I think).
I tend to think that designer ideas change. So when I see a new uniform in the game, like the characters, I ignore it and just admire it.

[Dragon1]

It just doesn't make sense to have one uniform during the academy, changing it again at the end of the series, changing it after the first game, changing it for the 2nd game, changing them drastically for the 3rd (only a year or so after the 2nd I think).
I tend to think that designer ideas change. So when I see a new uniform in the game, like the characters, I ignore it and just admire it.

I don't think the uniforms were changed. If you look at most modern military uniforms of the world today, there have typically been few changes, cosmetic and stylistic more so than function, since the 60s and the 70s (USAF got a new uniform and the USN dropped the semi-formal Khaki jacket).

While I think clothing styles may have changed from 2654 to 2681, the uniform worn in 2281 wouldn't be altogether different. So when we see different uniforms in the series, we can probably equate this to a the modern Airforce and Navy having many uniforms as opposed to having one Spandex jump suit (sorry Star Trek fans) that is replaced every second season.

[Bandit LOAF]

TCN (and TCSF which was still using naval ranks at this time and may have been just an extension of the Navy)

The problem with this theory is that it doesn't actually explain anything.

We still see Space Forces aviators well before the original Wing Commander in the timeline (Lt. Col. Blakely, Maj. Rathjee, 2nd Lt. Taggart)... and Naval Aviators well after the original Wing Commander (Lt. Cmdr. Bondarevsky, Cmdr. Blair). We need a reason why the services are so closely connected, not why one secretly doesn't exist.

As for the uniforms... I'd have to say it's a lost cause beyond catergorizing them (which is, however, an alltogether noble goal). Ones you missed include the 'Soviet' Super Wing Commander uniforms and Capt. Goodin's teal uniform in Privateer.

[Dragon1]

Yeah, going back through some of the earlier threads, I see that Space Force ranks and Navy ranks did exist separately prior to the Wing Commander Movie. This must mean that the two forces had distinct roles that may have gradually transitioned throughout the war.

For example, prior to WC1, the TCN pilots may have been specifically responsible for space-to-space combat, and the TCSF pilots may have been carrier-based, but were more optimized for surface strike missions.

After WC1, we see very few TCN pilots (with the exception of Lt. Cmdr. Bondarevsky). Perhaps at this time, the TCSF took on alot of the roles of the TCN pilots, thus many Navy people (like Blair) transferred their commissions to the Space Force. Pilots like Bondarevsky may have remained Navy pilots because of the role they specialized in.

Ones you missed include the 'Soviet' Super Wing Commander uniforms and Capt. Goodin's teal uniform in Privateer.

I don't think I remember what the Super Wing Commander uniform looked like, I haven't played that game since I had my 3DO. Would anyone have a pic?

[Bandit LOAF]

Here's Spirit in SWC:

[Halman]

She doesn't look very japanese.

[Bandit LOAF]

Originally Posted by Halman

She doesn't look very japanese.

Big words coming from an anime fan.

[Dragon1]

Thanks Loaf

It is a totally different look. What spawned the differences for SWC? I remember the model for the Exeter class DD was also much different.

[Bandit LOAF]

Oh, they were just trying to spice it up for the 3DO and Macintosh. The guys doing graphics in 1993/4 were a different from than the ones who did the original Wing Commander ships. It's interesting to see where SWC goes -- the Dralthi and the Salthi make it to Privateer... but the Drayman model is replaced. It has a lot of influence on later games, but in unusual ways.

[Mufossa]

Originally Posted by Dragon1

Yeah, going back through some of the earlier threads, I see that Space Force ranks and Navy ranks did exist separately prior to the Wing Commander Movie. This must mean that the two forces had distinct roles that may have gradually transitioned throughout the war.

In the case of the Wing Commander Movie, I'd simply call it a case of Hollywood-induced alteration. As a stand-alone film with little to no bearing on the games, the movie was okay. I'd call it a nice tribute, but leave it at that.

As it seems, most film makers seem very reluctant to swallow a story whole when they turn it into a screenplay. Even Lord of the Rings had some scenes cut out of it and that was the most faithful adaptation most audiences have seen in quite some time! I can already imagine some of the conversation someone in the WC Movie writing team had to have had about the rank issue, "What the heck is this with Army ranks in a space navy? Nobody except the game players are gonna buy that and we don't want to waste valuable screen time explaining it to the audience who probably won't care so much anyway. Just convert 'em over to Navy."

Sigh.

[DyNaMiX]

Well Navy ranks around the world seem very similar. I mean heck we all wear whites. So when trying to create a "Terran Confederation", it's best to try and create a realistic image. The one thing I dislike about Wing Commander is the Army ranks for the Space Forces. I'm from Australia. Our Air Force ranks are NOTHING like the Army. So to have captains and majors in the Space Force makes absolutely no sense to me. And we're not the only country that way.
Where as the navy made perfect sense. Except we don't use "1st" Lieutenant. We simply say Lieutenant.
I also feel Star Trek may have taken this approach as well. Relating space travel and sea travel and using navy ranks.

It might even be a bit simpler. Having two seperate forces may confuse people.

[Bandit LOAF]

In the case of the Wing Commander Movie, I'd simply call it a case of Hollywood-induced alteration. As a stand-alone film with little to no bearing on the games, the movie was okay. I'd call it a nice tribute, but leave it at that.

I appreciate that we have to do this every time (sigh), but in this case it isn't even valid because we're dealing with conflicting ranks from all sorts of different sources. If anything, the movie is the most logical of the group (and heck, you're the first person to bring the movie up about ranks -- all my examples were from novels and guides).

[Dragon1]

Like Loaf said, this is not about the Wing Commander Movie. The rank issue is brought up several times, including in the Wing Commander Saga manual, where suddenly Blair is in the Navy again with the rank of Commander.

[Ijuin]

Originally Posted by DyNaMiX

. The one thing I dislike about Wing Commander is the Army ranks for the Space Forces. I'm from Australia. Our Air Force ranks are NOTHING like the Army. So to have captains and majors in the Space Force makes absolutely no sense to me. And we're not the only country that way.
Where as the navy made perfect sense. Except we don't use "1st" Lieutenant. We simply say Lieutenant.

The Terran Confederation Space Force is a direct analogy to the United States Air Force (or more properly to the United States Army Air Force, as the Army and Navy had their own subordinate air forces during WWII, which were spun off into the USAF under President Truman in the late 1940s). The USAF uses Army-type ranks for officers.

[Mufossa]

Actually, Blair was a Commodore, not a Commander. I suppose that the makers felt that appropriate as Blair is seen as an admiral at the end of WC4 when he makes the comment about using Black Lance fighters to supress a rebellion.

Anyway, whether it makes sense or not, it is what the games established. The Space Force is the upgraded U.S. Air Force and the Navy is... well... the Navy. With most navies having their own aviators, I can understand the initial confusion... Especially when, in WC2, Tolwyn says, "As far as I'm concerned, your career in the Navy is over!"

Hey, DyNaMIX, in Australia, does the Air Force do what the British RAF does... Squadron Leaders, Wing Commanders, and Group Captains? I actually think that's a pretty cool idea. Too bad they didn't try that for WC.

[Bandit LOAF]

Actually, Blair was a Commodore, not a Commander. I suppose that the makers felt that appropriate as Blair is seen as an admiral at the end of WC4 when he makes the comment about using Black Lance fighters to supress a rebellion.

Blair was a Commodore in Wing Commander Prophecy. The oddity this thread is referring to is an instance in the Kilrathi Saga manual where he's referred to as "Commander Blair" (in relation to his court martial).

[Dragon1]

Actually, Blair was a Commodore, not a Commander. I suppose that the makers felt that appropriate as Blair is seen as an admiral at the end of WC4 when he makes the comment about using Black Lance fighters to supress a rebellion.

Blair was a commodore in WCP, the reference about Blair being a commander comes from the WC Kilrathi Saga manual.

[Mufossa]

Hoboy... A case of Star Trek-style story contradiction.

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by Mufossa

Hoboy... A case of Star Trek-style story contradiction.

There's no situation where posting something silly like this makes a thread better.

[Mufossa]

Gee... Is it bad to express opinions all of a sudden? Or is it the fact that I'm just a "cadet" on this board and therefore need a nice virtual hazing?

[DyNaMiX]

Originally Posted by Mufossa

Hoboy... A case of Star Trek-style story contradiction.

"We do not discuss it with outsiders."

[Haesslich]

Originally Posted by Mufossa

Gee... Is it bad to express opinions all of a sudden? Or is it the fact that I'm just a "cadet" on this board and therefore need a nice virtual hazing?

Sorta like how Star Wars has a 'Star Trek' like contradiction with how Obi Wan discovered Anakin during the Clone Wars as a brilliant pilot, but then Episode I shows him being a sidekick to the guy who discovered Anakin about 10 years before the Clone Wars ever began?

Remember that Blair, at the time of the trial for negligence during the Tiger's Claw incident was a Lieutenant Colonel (07), as of the end of SM2. He was, according to the Official Guide to Wing Commander 1&2, supposed to take over the Claw's squadrons when Halcyon was promoted to the Tactical staff. This would have made him a Commander in the Navy ranks (07)... which is a sideways slip that seems to happen quite easily in the WC games and novels, at least between branches like the Navy and Space Forces.

We've seen this in how Bondarevsky got the rank of Lieutenant Commander (O6), a Navy rank which put him in the chain of command for the Tarawa, and he accepted promotion to Captain after the Kilrah raid, and a permanent assignment to the Navy. At the start of Prophecy, we also see Blair's transferred to the Navy, which meant his Brigadier General rank (O9) was retained as a Commodore (O9).

[Mufossa]

Hmmm... I guess that's what happens when your chance of making sequels is dependent upon player or audience response: You suddenly find yourself given the opportunity to develop a new story, but in order for it to work, you have to contradict some of what you said earlier.

(a la Zephram Cochrane being from Alpha Centauri... until ST: First Contact, or Miles O'Brien being a lieutenant until Barclay has to give him an order... then he gets conveniently demoted to Chief Petty Officer.)

Actually, this is further off the topic, sorry, but... wasn't there a sort of implication in WC1 (in the Secret Missions... #2 if memory serves) that Halcyon actually commanded the Claw? Maybe I'm missing something here, but I had that feeling.

I'm ready to be told I'm completely wrong on this one and wouldn't be surprised. It's been a while since I've flown off the 'Claw. :-)

[Mufossa]

In WCP, didn't the Space Force duty uniforms have red undershirts? (Hence the CIC jumpsuits having that look)

Thought that would be worth mentioning as, only in WC1 and WCP do you see undershirts. (Though, with the graphics being what they were, I sometimes thought the WC1 undershirts looked more like ascots or scarves.)

[Bandit LOAF]

All the games have undershirts - tan in WC1, white in WC2, gray in WC3, dark blue in WC4 and red in WCP.

Halcyon commanded the 'Claw only during SM1, and there's a back story to explain why. SM2 (and Freedom Flight) talk about the 'Claw's proper captain (Captain Thorn).

[Mufossa]

Yeah, I remember Freedom Flight... thought it was a great book! I played all the way through SM1 but only got part way through SM2. I guess that's where my confusion came from.

Thanks for jogging the ol' memory.

[Dragon1]

Would anyone have any screenshots (preferably detailed) of the naval uniforms from WC4, Prophecy, and/or Privateer? I am trying to catalogue some of the details, but my memory on the specific look is a little hazy. Thanks.

[DyNaMiX]

Originally Posted by Mufossa

Hmmm... I guess that's what happens when your chance of making sequels is dependent upon player or audience response: You suddenly find yourself given the opportunity to develop a new story, but in order for it to work, you have to contradict some of what you said earlier.

(a la Zephram Cochrane being from Alpha Centauri... until ST: First Contact, or Miles O'Brien being a lieutenant until Barclay has to give him an order... then he gets conveniently demoted to Chief Petty Officer.)

Actually, this is further off the topic, sorry, but... wasn't there a sort of implication in WC1 (in the Secret Missions... #2 if memory serves) that Halcyon actually commanded the Claw? Maybe I'm missing something here, but I had that feeling.

I'm ready to be told I'm completely wrong on this one and wouldn't be surprised. It's been a while since I've flown off the 'Claw. :-)

Not to mention Miles talking about the officers as if he didn't know what it was like to be one in Deep Space Nine. I'm positive I remember him saying something about the academy and not all of them have to go through it.