Kilrathi Saga sucks..(?)

[LarkInFlight]

Hello,
I bought Kilrathi Saga recently in order to play Wing 1 & 2 under modern system. The game starts fine uder my Windows XP, but.. Has anyone noticed that there are no planets, stars, etc. in the wing 1 & 2 background? Also, the "enemy shot down" music in Wing 1 hangs up frequently.. What is the matter with this game? Is there any way to fix this? Any patch? Please, I thought I could play Wings 1 & 2 just I used to play it few years ago (decades ago I sould say ). I'd love to play all Wings one after another and KS is obviously my only way to do this..

Regards,

Paul

[Bandit LOAF]

Kilrathi Saga isn't a great choice for playing Wing Commander in Windows XP. It was an early and very rough Windows 95 conversion of the games. It's much easier and a better experience to play the original WC and WC2 in Windows XP under DOSBox.

[LarkInFlight]

So, I guess there is no way to fix thouse bugs..

[ChrisReid]

No, but like loaf said, it's very easy to play the originals in DOSBox. They're very stable and they have none of those problems. They're much much cheaper than Kilrathi Saga on ebay too.

[Saturnyne]

I've never really understood anyone's objections against the KS set... it worked perfectly for me, beginning to end. The only problem I came across was that my CD drives firmware was so old, it couldn't read CD-R's properly. A quick and easy replacement later, and the games were working fine.

Of course, I run linux instead of windows now, so I'm not sure how it'll run under WINE. But hey, I'll have some time to test it later.

[ChrisReid]

Yeah, the game isn't broken, it's just no longer ideal. It works well for most people and was the primary solution for several years at least. But there are issues with the music, graphics and control input that some people encounter that do not exist in the original DOS versions. Kilrathi Saga is also often more expensive than picking up the DOS versions on their own, and getting them to work in DOSBox is generally no more difficult than setting up KS to work in XP. KS is a must-buy for collectors, and people who already own it and play it are already set, but people who are just trying to play the original WC games are probably better off searching for the DOS versions.

[Falcon988]

DOS versions of WC1 and WC2 are available at Ebay and Amazon for great prices. Last February I purchased WC2 Deluxe off of Amazon for 82 cents (a steal if ever there was one). And like it's already been said, they're easy to run on DosBox.

I tried out the KS version of WC2 sometime ago and it just wasn't working properly at all. WC1 was perfect though. In WC2 the keys would lock up repeatedly, the music and the sound were terrible, at one point there was loud obnoxious computerized shrieks whenever I fired my guns .

Here's a link to WC2 Deluxe on Amazon selling for 19 cents. I mean, come on. The price is so low it's almost insulting :-).

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...015802?ie=UTF8

The copy of WC1 on Amazon is much more expensive but there's cheaper ones off of Ebay. My strong advice to you is to get the originals then read the "Run Old Games" walkthrough on the CIC main page (http://www.wcnews.com/news/update/6042). And if you have trouble then come back to this forum and the Wingnuts here will help you out quite speedily.

[CataclysmX]

I feel like hording them just to save them from the public insult of a $0.19 price tag.

[LightNinja]

I disagree that DOSbox is a better alternative to play WC1&2 on Windows XP. Two reasons:

If you have an older PC there will be some performance problems. (Don't laugh, it's true; emulation needs WAY more CPU power than native)
Non-USB Joysticks don't work very well with DOSbox.


Someone said, some bugs with the music that are in the Kilrathi Saga, but not in the DOS version. However, there have always been some minor bugs with the music, e.g. in some missions it gives the cheerful music when you fly back to the Claw, despite you were unsuccesful.
Also Kilrathi Saga doesn't seen to have that "stack problem", which in very crowded situations will make your fire-button not work. (See the asteroid encounter in that dreaded "Saving the Ralari" mission).

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by LightNinja

I disagree that DOSbox is a better alternative to play WC1&2 on Windows XP. Two reasons:

If you have an older PC there will be some performance problems. (Don't laugh, it's true; emulation needs WAY more CPU power than native)
Non-USB Joysticks don't work very well with DOSbox.

These would mostly be valid problems in 2003. Joysticks or computers made since then would not have these issues trying to run WC1/2 in DOSBox in Windows.

[Chaosbringer]

Originally Posted by Saturnyne

I've never really understood anyone's objections against the KS set... it worked perfectly for me, beginning to end. The only problem I came across was that my CD drives firmware was so old, it couldn't read CD-R's properly. A quick and easy replacement later, and the games were working fine.

Of course, I run linux instead of windows now, so I'm not sure how it'll run under WINE. But hey, I'll have some time to test it later.

So, Kilrathi saga works in Linux? I plan to change my computer soon and i want to use Linux as my OS.

[frostytheplebe]

Originally Posted by Chaosbringer

So, Kilrathi saga works in Linux? I plan to change my computer soon and i want to use Linux as my OS.

Im hesitant to downgrade my compy to Windows XP for that reason... I have it working very well on Vista (UGH!)

[OSH]

Kilrathi Saga works perfectly under VMWare 6.5.0 and Windows 98 SE emulation.

[Max Gene]

Originally Posted by LightNinja

Also Kilrathi Saga doesn't seen to have that "stack problem", which in very crowded situations will make your fire-button not work. (See the asteroid encounter in that dreaded "Saving the Ralari" mission).

Oh, the stack problem is definitely there, my friend. Especially in that save the Ralari mission.

[FekLeyrTarg]

Originally Posted by Max Gene

Oh, the stack problem is definitely there, my friend. Especially in that save the Ralari mission.

Yes, I recall that bug in this mission, too. (Also KS)
But hey, perhabs there will be a background patch for KS one day. We already had that Snakeir patch for the KS version of Secret Misions 2.

[Triple-B]

well, don't anybody say the WC 1 and 2 are cheap. I just checked ebay.de, some people here think that due to it's rarity they must sell these games for 40 - 80 € each

unfortunately, I cannot find auction where these games are sold for next to nothing

edit: since the KS versions are a bit buggy, I was just curious to know if anybody could play SM 2 on the winning path ( KS version)

[AD]

Originally Posted by Triple-B

well, don't anybody say the WC 1 and 2 are cheap. I just checked ebay.de, some people here think that due to it's rarity they must sell these games for 40 - 80 € each

unfortunately, I cannot find auction where these games are sold for next to nothing

edit: since the KS versions are a bit buggy, I was just curious to know if anybody could play SM 2 on the winning path ( KS version)

You will find that the KS version is always overpriced. You can always find the DOS CD of WC2 for cheap though: 99 Cents

[Mace]

Originally Posted by Triple-B

well, don't anybody say the WC 1 and 2 are cheap. I just checked ebay.de, some people here think that due to it's rarity they must sell these games for 40 - 80 € each

unfortunately, I cannot find auction where these games are sold for next to nothing

edit: since the KS versions are a bit buggy, I was just curious to know if anybody could play SM 2 on the winning path ( KS version)

Wing Commander 1 deluxe edition would be rather a rarity in europe, I spend some years trying to get the secret missions, and though I have found a few bundles on CD, one actually stating in the manual that it included SM1, but the CD did not.

Wing commander II Deluxe CD edition however had been selling for full price until WC3 showed up, and then disappeared from the store shelves completely.

Here at the local gamestop gamestore you can get descent used copies of wingIIDeluxe , ArmadaCD, and Prophecy for 20 euro's though.

As for germany, ask around. somebody is bound to have those games in their attic

[Gimpy]

Originally Posted by Bandit LOAF

Kilrathi Saga isn't a great choice for playing Wing Commander in Windows XP. It was an early and very rough Windows 95 conversion of the games. It's much easier and a better experience to play the original WC and WC2 in Windows XP under DOSBox.

Are the same problems regarding the controls, graphics, and sound present with KS if you run it in a virtual pc using either Win95 or Win98?

[ChrisReid]

Yeah, the game just doesn't accept simultaneous key input and a couple things like that.

[Gimpy]

Hmm...I'm tracking down a legit copy of KS that wont cost me my first born, maybe I'll be lucky and not experience the graphic or sound issues hopefully.

[wendelloni]

Originally Posted by ChrisReid

Yeah, the game just doesn't accept simultaneous key input and a couple things like that.

When you say simultaneous key input, does that include... say control and e? I can't seem to eject. Or adjust the music and sound volumes.

[Wedge009]

I seem to recall having difficulty with turning and firing at the same time while using the keyboard on Kilrathi Saga. The DOS version did not have this issue. It could be the different ways that DOS and Windows handles keyboard interrupts.

[Madman]

Ironically i tried to play wc2 recently on my laptop and had the opposite problem wc2 in dosbox i couldnt turn and fire (or could fire and start to turn and the turn would lock until i stopped pressing fire!) yet the KS version worked fine for me!

I'd suggest trying the dos games first (cheaper, easier etc) and then getting KS after, even if the dos versions work KS provides some cool manual stuff and mp3 music files (easier to extract).

As for suggesting that emulation requires too powerful a system. While wc3 and 4 would be a push on some systems, you'd have to go back a long way to find a pc that can't run dosbox and wing2 perfectly (around the 800MHZ mark or so) basically, if you aim to emulate around 10-20 times smaller than your actual system you're probably going to be okay! (so for wc1,2 around a 400-800MHz, and for 3 and 4 around 2GHz)

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by wendelloni

When you say simultaneous key input, does that include... say control and e? I can't seem to eject. Or adjust the music and sound volumes.

I'd have to check on that one. Not sure if it would affect control+e, since that triggered one action (ejection). The primarily complaints were with how it handled multiple inputs such as afterburning, turning and shooting together.

[Timiditas]

I just got my hands on a nice Kilrathi Saga box but regret it already for various reasons that were already stated. I LOVE the enhanced music and sfx in WC1 but...:
First there is that sticky flippy mouse steering which drives me nuts. Then there is DIFFICULTY!
What the hell happened with the difficulty in WC1 Kilrathi Saga version?
I barely made it to the third mission in McAuliffe, where you have to escort a Drayman transport back to the Tigers claw. I am completely stuck at this one. Tried it like a felt thousand times but the first wave waiting for you at NAV1 always manages to bring the transport down or hit it so hard that it only takes seconds for Bhurak and his mates to destroy it. If not, its me who is shot down.
Paladin is no help at all, either he is killed himself or doesn't score a kill at all.

General tips in the guides like taunting the fighters to draw them away or not approaching Nav1 to stall the jump of the Drayman doesn't work.

Frustrated I installed DosBox and WC1 DOS version and guess what...
I succeeded this mission on the very first try with nearly no scratch on my hull. Whats up with that?

*pant pant* ok /rant mode off

I also noticed the mouse steering reticle is much smoother in DosBox than it is in the KS version. I really love the improved sound but I think I have to stick to the DOS version if the difficulty can't be fixed in any way without cheating.
I have the feeling that this has something to do with modern machines speeds. The animations are not too fast or anything, but the raw processing power might break other stuff like trigger timing.

E.g.: In KS version, the Drayman jumps in like 15 seconds after I engaged the first four cats waiting at Nav1.
In the DOS version, the Drayman jumped in just before I landed the final blow on the last remaining Kilrathi which was around 2 minutes after engaging on them.
They also landed much less hits on my ship and generally behaved like they did back in the days and on the Amiga.
KS version tho, the AI seems smart like a Chess World Champion.

Sorry for all these exaggerations, I'm just trying to put into words how it feels to play KS WC1 on this machine.

P.s.: I tried to record a video of that mission but 'Fraps' doesn't work. Looks like KS WC1 doesn't use DirectX

[ChrisReid]

I think you've kind of hit it there. There's no difference in difficulty level between WC1 DOS and KS really, but the game potentially runs at full speed in Windows where the DOS version would have lagged, and that makes some things harder.

[Timiditas]

That sounds like the KS version is what the designers ultimately had in mind. If thats really the case, WC1 needs a difficulty switch badly because currently its just unfair and frustrating.
Although I'd propably give a damn if you could save the game mid-mission.

I tried to swap the file "SAVEGAME.WLD" between the DOS and KS version and it seems to work nicely. I'll just do the impossible missions in DosBox.
... That could be considered cheating already but well...

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by Timiditas

That sounds like the KS version is what the designers ultimately had in mind. If thats really the case, WC1 needs a difficulty switch badly because currently its just unfair and frustrating.
Although I'd propably give a damn if you could save the game mid-mission.

That's what games were like in 1990. Games were universally HARD and mid-mission saves were unheard of. That's why WC1 has such extensive plot branching.

[webe123]

Actually, the BEST way to play WC is knowing that there are missions deliberately put in there that you CANNOT win!

The "save the ralari" in WC 1 is one, but you can let the ralari blow up and STILL win the game, so what is the point of having that stupid mission in the first place? Why make unwinnable missions at all?

There is another one in WC 2 and one in WC3.

WHY Origin decided to make these games that way I will never understand, but if you come across a mission like save the ralari and you cannot pass it, it may not have been meant to be passed! Just skip it and let the stupid ship blow up and go on to the next mission.

I still think that is the stupidest thing to make a mission no one can pass.

But game designers do a LOT of idiotic things, like the new just cause2 that has a save feature that if you use it, it wipes out the checkpoint, so either you just depend on the game not screwing up and use it's checkpoint system or save your game yourself and go WAY back in the game every time you start back up...IDIOTIC!

That is why I HATE STEAM games!

[Wedge009]

/facepalm~

There are no missions in either WC1 or WC2 which are impossible to complete. Even those on losing paths, where you lose the overall campaign, are still possible to 'win' in themselves.

WC3 had a mission which was impossible to win if only because it is the end of the war - and humanity is conquered by the Kilrathi.

Origin made the early WCs the way it did because they 'created worlds'. That was the way the did things and they did it very, very well. I'm not an expert gamer by any means, but even I can see that recent games are much easier than they were in the 1990s.

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by webe123

Actually, the BEST way to play WC is knowing that there are missions deliberately put in there that you CANNOT win!

The "save the ralari" in WC 1 is one, but you can let the ralari blow up and STILL win the game, so what is the point of having that stupid mission in the first place? Why make unwinnable missions at all?

The Kurasawa Ralari mission in WC1 is not unwinable. You can save the Ralari, and many people have done it. Winning contributes to sending you directly to Venice, losing puts you in Rostov. It's a hard mission, but there are others throughout the series that are harder. Here's a screenshot of the Ralari alive with all the enemies destroyed.

[webe123]

Originally Posted by Wedge009

/facepalm~

There are no missions in either WC1 or WC2 which are impossible to complete. Even those on losing paths, where you lose the overall campaign, are still possible to 'win' in themselves.

WC3 had a mission which was impossible to win if only because it is the end of the war - and humanity is conquered by the Kilrathi.

Origin made the early WCs the way it did because they 'created worlds'. That was the way the did things and they did it very, very well. I'm not an expert gamer by any means, but even I can see that recent games are much easier than they were in the 1990s.

The save the ralari mission is one that if you play it 1000 times you may get it right ONCE! That is very, very stupid in my opinion.

I am not saying you CANNOT win it, but I did win it once only after DAYS of trying and I KNOW what it takes to win that stupid mission, so please don't try to tell me that mission is not nearly impossible, when I know it is.

Playing something over and over again can be nothing but frustrating.

Now if YOU think that is the way games are supposed to be, well I strongly disagree with that opinion.

Originally Posted by ChrisReid

The Kurasawa Ralari mission in WC1 is not unwinable. You can save the Ralari, and many people have done it. Winning contributes to sending you directly to Venice, losing puts you in Rostov. It's a hard mission, but there are others throughout the series that are harder. Here's a screenshot of the Ralari alive with all the enemies destroyed.

I am not saying it is totally unwinnable, I DID win it...ONCE, but that it is very very HARD!

And to save myself pulling my hair out, I just let the stupid ship blow up and went on to win the game! Quite frankly, I don't need the aggrivation!

[Wedge009]

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

However, refusing to accept that something is not impossible solely because of your opinion is, well... not very smart. I'll leave it at that.

[AD]

Originally Posted by Wedge009

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

However, refusing to accept that something is not impossible solely because of your opinion is, well... not very smart. I'll leave it at that.

I also fail to see how having really hard missions in a game with a branching mission tree is a problem. That particular mission doesn't punish you in any way for not saving the ship... If anything, saving it is a bonus akin to some of the really tough acheivements on the xbox.

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by webe123

The save the ralari mission is one that if you play it 1000 times you may get it right ONCE! That is very, very stupid in my opinion.

I am not saying you CANNOT win it, but I did win it once only after DAYS of trying and I KNOW what it takes to win that stupid mission, so please don't try to tell me that mission is not nearly impossible, when I know it is.

If you just bang your head against a wall a thousand times, you'll be able to walk through the hole. Twist the door knob, and it's a lot easier. I can probably finish the mission about a quarter of the time. It wasn't always like that, and I lost the mission many times before I developed a winning strategy. As soon as you arrive, you need to tell your wingman to break. Bossman will stick with you and be worthless otherwise. Dash straight for the Gratha that's pounding the Ralari, and take it out quickly with missiles. Bossman will be tangling with one fighter, which will leave you 2 against 1. Switch back and forth between the Gratha that's attacking the Ralari, and eventually you'll take one out. At this point it's a normal dogfight that should be fairly winnable. I think a lot of people drop at the nav point and start blasting the first thing they see. You're setting yourself up for a 4 versus 1 fight then, and a couple enemies are going to toast the destroyer in no time.

[Szegedin]

Back to the Kilrathi saga vs. the DOS originals, I personally find the KS versions better because of the improved sound and music. I don't have an Mp-32, and the Munt derived emulations for DosBox sound wonkier IMO than KS's sometimes glitchy music. WC1 and 2 in general midi sound pretty nasty and basically have no sound effects....

KS getting stuck on the enemy destroyed theme is pretty bad and surprisingly frequent....but at least I can hear my guns and explosions...

I do vastly prefer Wc3 in dosbox however - computers are more than fast enough these days to get that baby running in emulated glory, music also sounds pretty nice through an mt-32 emulator, and not bad at all in general midi.