Drop Bomber Ballots Here (March 6, 2010)

[ChrisReid]

The new poll asks what your favorite bomber is. There's plenty of fighters that can take out a massive warship and many ways to launch a torpedo, but what's the best ship to do it in? You have quite a few to choose from!

The last poll inquired about landing methods. Different ships we've flown off have markedly different touchdown routines. Although far less technically advanced than zooming through the Victory's flight deck (the 2nd place winner), the most popular option was lining up with the Tiger's Claw's nose.



What's your favorite way to land?





Lining up with the Tiger's Claw
33.11%




Roaring over the Concordia runway
16.29%




Zooming through the Victory's bay

25.76%




Clearing the Intrepid's ceiling
6.70%




Picking a rear bay on the Midway
5.12%





Ducking around the Cerberus gun
2.63%




Entering a Gemini landing zone
10.38%





Ended on March 6, 2010 | 761 votes







--
Original update published on March 6, 2010

[Wedge009]

This is a really hard one as I like several of those craft listed, but for various reasons. Many of them serve different purposes and also behave in different ways due to the different ways the various games worked.

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

The best bomber feeling for me comes with the WC2 Broadsword (and Crossbow).

But taking out capships was always easiest with the Morningstar for, which I voted for. Closely followed by Armadas Gladius and WC4's Vindicator.

Very fun was also leeching a Ralatha with Academy's Wraith and then destroying it with guns.

[LarkInFlight]

Lance - do you mean Black Lance Dragon?

If so, all I can say, it is definately the ultimate bomber!
It can cloak, has grat speed, shields and armour (important for torpedo runs) and It's got something more - flashpacks! I wish I had one of theese when I was fighting two elite Fralthras. It would take me like 1 minute to kill them both with this avesome vessel.

[Deacan]

Well... Just love the Devastator. Very heavy load, nice look...

ps: it's very sad we never seen the Dev teaming up with the Shrike carring the wild weasel loadout...

[Mace]

Morningstar all the way

[Wedge009]

Originally Posted by Deacan

it's very sad we never seen the Dev teaming up with the Shrike carring the wild weasel loadout...

Because it wasn't really necessary or effective? Devastators need agile fighter protection to counter its low speed and manoeuvrability.

[-danr-]

I might get flamed for this, but shouldn't the Thunderbolt be in this poll? I know she's classified as a heavy fighter, but she's got Torpedo capability, and surely if the Sabre are Gladius are included, the 'Bolt should too?

[Farbourne]

I would tend to agree. The Tbolt is certainly as much a bomber as the Sabre or Glaudius, and far more so than the Banshee.

It looks like the poll is just a choice of "craft we fly in the games that can carry torpedoes". Except they left off the T-bolt.

I would define "bomber" a little more narrowly...I would say to qualify as a "bomber" and not a heavy fighter, it has to carry multiple torpedoes and have at least one turret.

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by -danr-

I might get flamed for this, but shouldn't the Thunderbolt be in this poll?

I don't see why you'd get flamed for that. We can add the Thunderbolt.

Originally Posted by Farbourne

I would define "bomber" a little more narrowly...I would say to qualify as a "bomber" and not a heavy fighter, it has to carry multiple torpedoes and have at least one turret.

In coming up with the options for the poll, you quickly find that it's very hard to define bombers. The Vindicator is classed as a medium fighter, but it's got 3 torpedoes and a rear turret. Something like the Morningstar has no turret and is certainly more nimble than traditional bombers, but it has two torpedoes and the incredible Mace. Academy recognizes it "as the current Confederation state-of-the-art capital ship destroyer." The list grows fast.

[Vinman]

Broadsword, definitely. Nothing feels as much like a bomber as a broadsword.

[Justice]

What Vinman said. Most of the others are a lot of fun but feel more like heavy fighters to me, and I like the more extreme transition of switching to a broadsword. With the broadsword, I can keep on making my approach and fight ships off with my turrets and superior shields, while with the others I feel like I have to dogfight like I was in a normal fighter to avoid getting clobbered. And it has no afterburner.

[Farbourne]

Originally Posted by Justice

What Vinman said. Most of the others are a lot of fun but feel more like heavy fighters to me, and I like the more extreme transition of switching to a broadsword. With the broadsword, I can keep on making my approach and fight ships off with my turrets and superior shields, while with the others I feel like I have to dogfight like I was in a normal fighter to avoid getting clobbered. And it has no afterburner.

I agree with this sentiment. The Broadsword really required a completely different flying style than most other fighters one would fly.

However, I disagree that it was the only one. I think both the Longbow and the Devastator "felt" like bombers. In both of them you only fired at fighters if they came at you, and instead relied on your fighter escorts, turret, or (in the case of the Longbow) a flurry of Pilum FF's to keep you safe, while you concentrated on making runs on the big boys.

[-danr-]

Originally Posted by ChrisReid

I don't see why you'd get flamed for that. We can add the Thunderbolt.

Thank you, team Thunderbolt is grateful

Originally Posted by Justice

With the broadsword, I can keep on making my approach and fight ships off with my turrets and superior shields

Now that's something I've always struggled with, I think it depends on how much fighter cover you've got - but regardless as to what ship I'm flying, I always remember the late Bossman's advice

Originally Posted by Kien Chen

Thing to do is clean up the fighter cover first, then go in for the battleship.

Even in the Broadsword, turrets and all, I get mauled if I haven't picked off a few fighters first - the mission to destroy the Kilrathi supply depot with Angel is a good example, three Jalkehi on your case and it's very difficult to make a good Torpedo run.

Teaches you how to dogfight in even the heaviest of ships, WC2 turret gunning is IMO the best to control in the series.

See what I did there eh? With the spoiler?

[Oggy]

I would concur with the Broadsword sentiment, for me, its got that "Flying Fortress" feel for the preconception I've got of what a heavy bomber is from watching WW2 films.
I get a similar feeling off the Devestator as well with its sluggishness and the four turrets.

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by Oggy

I would concur with the Broadsword sentiment, for me, its got that "Flying Fortress" feel for the preconception I've got of what a heavy bomber is from watching WW2 films.

That's good, because it's *exactly* what Origin was going for. They both have the same designation (A-17/B-17).

[Mjr. Whoopass]

The Dragon was definitely the most effective bomber. You can't beat the ability to sneak up on a ship while cloaked, uncloak and knock it out with one flashpack. Kilrathi fighters were the first to show the powerful effect of a cloaked capship attack when they destroyed the Tiger's claw.

The Dragon's ability to knock off fighters was nice too, but probably not necessary for destroying bases and capships since you can use a good sneak attack against the large target. We see Seether using Bossman's technique of knocking out the Hellcats first, but that was probably with the goal of leaving no witnesses, or else due to his aggressive perfectionist nature.

[Farbourne]

Originally Posted by Mjr. Whoopass

The Dragon was definitely the most effective bomber. You can't beat the ability to sneak up on a ship while cloaked, uncloak and knock it out with one flashpack. Kilrathi fighters were the first to show the powerful effect of a cloaked capship attack when they destroyed the Tiger's claw.

A lot of this was largely due to the novelty of its technology...this effectiveness wouldn't have lasted long in wartime. Indeed, we already see measures against this appearing in WC4. The flashpack couldn't be used on the Vesuvius except from inside the hangar bay, because of some alloy in her hull? And I'm guessing trying to sneak even a cloaked ship into the hangar bay of a ship is a bit of a challenge. Especially because we see in WC4 that basic cloak detection is possible (the Lances/Dragons could "see" other cloaked ships, even if they couldn't track them on radar). Also, there may have been other countermeasures that would be easy to deploy to reduce the flashpack effectiveness...perhaps some kind of fast acting catalyst in the atmosphere of the ship that would neutralize the flashpack's chemical explosiveness? Or maybe something as simple as a double hull or foam-filled void between hull plating?

The ability to sneak up, get a torpedo lock, uncloak, and let fly is certainly powerful, which is why cloaked attack fighters are so fearsome. However, it's probably worth noting that cloaking and countercloaking technologies are probably constantly evolving...just as stealth and counterstealth technology is constantly evolving today.

Plus, there's cost. Something could be the best bomber in the world, but if it costs too much to field more than a squadron of them, you're not going to build too many of them. I've read (probably non-canon) descriptions of the Lance/Dragon that imply that each one cost more than a star system. Now, that could certainly be an exaggeration, but I'm sure they weren't cheap.

[JasonRocZ]

I have love for both the Longbow and the Broadsword... They both not only looked cool....but could Blow S*it UP !

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by Farbourne

The ability to sneak up, get a torpedo lock, uncloak, and let fly is certainly powerful, which is why cloaked attack fighters are so fearsome. However, it's probably worth noting that cloaking and countercloaking technologies are probably constantly evolving...just as stealth and counterstealth technology is constantly evolving today.

There are a bunch of good examples of this. Armada Proving Grounds includes a gun that disables the cloak on cloakable ships, WC4 has the system that "sees" through cloaks, Arena has the "sensor ping" that reveals cloaked ships.

[Highball]

Man, I couldn't stand flying the Broadsword. Every time I'd get in one, I'd have to take out some kind of fighter cover composed mainly of ships I should have no problem taking out (Sartha, Drakhri). These silly escort fighters would seem like Kilrathi super ships, simply due to the fact that I didn't have the speed to keep up, and could not compensate by scooting around with afterburner pushes to get myself back into firing range. Jalkehis and Griks weren't too much of a problem in it, though, because those were slow, and the 'sword could soak up a lot of damage.

Of course, the 3 Mass Drivers had a good punch, if your target wasn't constantly "out of range." I would keep thinking: "Man, I wish I could have used a friggin' SABRE for this mission instead. These damn Drakhris wouldn't constantly be out of range if I could do something besides plod along like a warthog through molasses." Made torpedo runs hellish, too, especially if the object I am trying to torpedo is going to take more than one torpedo to kill.

I'd get a lock and fly toward the cap ship, my shields soaking up whatever flak gun damage came at me without going down lower than 45 or so. I'd launch the torp and pull out, and suddenly, as I was flying away, my shields would drop faster than Tiger Woods' popularity. Before I knew it, I was getting chewed to bits and could not make a speedy getaway due to the lack of afterburners. Lost lots of missions due to my ship being blown to pieces as I was trying to get away from a stinking stationary cap ship. Ugh!

Broadswords definitely LOOK cool, but God, trying to fly one? Sabre, please.

[Death]

Dude, one word: turrets

After coming out of autopilot, start flying away from the escorts. The AI is stupid enough that they'll line up behind you nicely so you can mow them down with your rear turret neutron guns, and thin out their numbers some before they get close enough to engage.

[Mace]

Originally Posted by Highball

Man, I couldn't stand flying the Broadsword. Every time I'd get in one, I'd have to take out some kind of fighter cover composed mainly of ships I should have no problem taking out (Sartha, Drakhri). These silly escort fighters would seem like Kilrathi super ships, simply due to the fact that I didn't have the speed to keep up, and could not compensate by scooting around with afterburner pushes to get myself back into firing range. Jalkehis and Griks weren't too much of a problem in it, though, because those were slow, and the 'sword could soak up a lot of damage.

Of course, the 3 Mass Drivers had a good punch, if your target wasn't constantly "out of range." I would keep thinking: "Man, I wish I could have used a friggin' SABRE for this mission instead. These damn Drakhris wouldn't constantly be out of range if I could do something besides plod along like a warthog through molasses." Made torpedo runs hellish, too, especially if the object I am trying to torpedo is going to take more than one torpedo to kill.

I'd get a lock and fly toward the cap ship, my shields soaking up whatever flak gun damage came at me without going down lower than 45 or so. I'd launch the torp and pull out, and suddenly, as I was flying away, my shields would drop faster than Tiger Woods' popularity. Before I knew it, I was getting chewed to bits and could not make a speedy getaway due to the lack of afterburners. Lost lots of missions due to my ship being blown to pieces as I was trying to get away from a stinking stationary cap ship. Ugh!

Broadswords definitely LOOK cool, but God, trying to fly one? Sabre, please.

Nobody ever said saving humanity from a bunch of aliens was supposed to be a milk run At least with the Broadsword you have enough torpedoes so you can have the enemy shoot one down with it's flack. But the idea of flying in a bomber without escorts is ridiculous in the first place.

[Highball]

Originally Posted by Mace

But the idea of flying in a bomber without escorts is ridiculous in the first place.

True, but you've got to do it a lot in WC2, anyway.

[Farbourne]

Originally Posted by Highball

Of course, the 3 Mass Drivers had a good punch, if your target wasn't constantly "out of range." I would keep thinking: "Man, I wish I could have used a friggin' SABRE for this mission instead. These damn Drakhris wouldn't constantly be out of range if I could do something besides plod along like a warthog through molasses." Made torpedo runs hellish, too, especially if the object I am trying to torpedo is going to take more than one torpedo to kill.

I was always convinced that the Broadsword (and Crossbow, too, for that matter), had exactly the wrong armament, and should have swapped its guns with the Epee.

The 'Sword as an incredibly awesome gunnery platform (much like the Y-Wing in the LucasArts games)--it's mass and low maneuverability actually work to your advantage when you want to carefully line up precise shots, and it's ungodly armor and shields mean that you can go nose to nose with any craft you want, without having to juke or slide, and come out undamaged as long as you don't rush too many at once. So they give you this awesome gunnery platform--and arm it with some of the shortest range guns in the game, so you get one, maybe two shots max off before the light fighter(s) you're trying to shred are out of range.

Meanwhile, the Epee, which has insane maneuverability and acceleration, but effectively no shields or armor, was good at dodging in and out of a dogfight, getting close in and firing quickly and then getting out, and yet it had, high damage, slow-firing, long range particle cannons. In an Epee, I generally was really close to my targets and didn't care for range, but wanted to fire off shots as quickly as I could. In a 'Sword, I wanted to line up shots carefully at range, since I didn't have the speed to dogfight.

[Mace]

In an Epee, you need to get the draw on a person/cat. It's no trading licks because you'll lose to a craft with a superior refire rate.

[Highball]

Originally Posted by Death

Dude, one word: turrets

After coming out of autopilot, start flying away from the escorts. The AI is stupid enough that they'll line up behind you nicely so you can mow them down with your rear turret neutron guns, and thin out their numbers some before they get close enough to engage.

I have to admit, this is an advantage of the Broadsword. I've pulled this trick a lot, but it doesn't make up for getting chewed to bits as I am flying away from a torpedo run.

[Wedge009]

Originally Posted by Farbourne

I was always convinced that the Broadsword (and Crossbow, too, for that matter), had exactly the wrong armament, and should have swapped its guns with the Epee.

I imagine game-play balance may have had something to do with that decision. Three particle cannons would give the Broadsword the same armament as the Morningstar, and while it certainly doesn't have the Morningstar's manoeuvrability, it could possibly make the ship too easy to play against fighters.

As has been mentioned by others, it seems to me that the Broadsword is meant to be more of a missile and torpedo platform, not for gunning down fighters.

[-danr-]

Originally Posted by Wedge009

Three particle cannons would give the Broadsword the same armament as the Morningstar

Indeed, and the Epee with mass drivers would share its guns with the inferior Ferret I love the Epee just the way she is, a light attack fighter with Torpedo capabilities - I particularly like the Standoff version, I'll be including Epees with torp in the missions I'm working on.

[Farbourne]

Originally Posted by -danr-

Indeed, and the Epee with mass drivers would share its guns with the inferior Ferret I love the Epee just the way she is, a light attack fighter with Torpedo capabilities - I particularly like the Standoff version, I'll be including Epees with torp in the missions I'm working on.

Indeed...and I loved flying the Ferret, and hated flying the Epee (In WC2, not Standoff).

I think it's a style preference. As designed, the Ferret requires you to get close in and dance with your opponents...darting in and out and dogfighting with them, relying on your speed, maneuverability, and the refire rate of your guns. The Epee is more suited towards using it's slow-firing, long range, powerful guns to snipe, and using it's speed and maneuverability to stay out of range of the opponent, instead of getting in close and dancing.

I tend to prefer the former flying style by far. Sniping and using your evasive ability to play keep away was never fun...and frequently took too long when you absolutely needed to down incoming Grikhath.

[Farbourne]

Incidentally, if we want to see what WC Game Designers, as a group, prefer (or at least prefer making others use), here's the breakdown by my count (based on the CIC game guides and not counting Standoff):

Avenger: 23 missions (allowed to select)
Banshee: 18 missions (allowed to select)
Broadsword: 17 missions
Crossbow: 6 missions
Devastator: 7 missions (possible, plus whatever is in Secret Ops...not finished counting yet)
Gladius: 0 missions
Lance: 9 missions (allowed to select)
Longbow: 22 missions (allowed to select)
Morningstar: 9 missions
Sabre: 25 missions
Shrike: 5 missions (possible, plus whatever is in Secret Ops)
Thunderbolt: 23 missions (allowed to select)
Vindicator: 22 missions (allowed to select).

So the clear winner of the bomber we're forced to fly the most is the Sabre, which, if you fly every winning and losing path mission in WC2, SO1, and SO2, you're forced to fly 25 times. Some of the WC3 and WC4 bombers come close, but only if you pick a bomber every time (and who does that?)

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by Farbourne

Gladius: 0 missions

Sabre: 25 missions

So the clear winner of the bomber we're forced to fly the most is the Sabre, which, if you fly every winning and losing path mission in WC2, SO1, and SO2, you're forced to fly 25 times. Some of the WC3 and WC4 bombers come close, but only if you pick a bomber every time (and who does that?)

I intended the Sabre to be the loadout that carries that huge rack of torpedoes, which we don't see very often.

I also don't have my Armada guide handy at the moment, but the Gladius does show up within the 15-mission Armada Confed Gauntlet campaign.

[AD]

Originally Posted by Farbourne

I think it's a style preference. As designed, the Ferret requires you to get close in and dance with your opponents...darting in and out and dogfighting with them, relying on your speed, maneuverability, and the refire rate of your guns. The Epee is more suited towards using it's slow-firing, long range, powerful guns to snipe, and using it's speed and maneuverability to stay out of range of the opponent, instead of getting in close and dancing.

I tend to prefer the former flying style by far. Sniping and using your evasive ability to play keep away was never fun...and frequently took too long when you absolutely needed to down incoming Grikhath.

I had a heck of a time staying alive in an epee back in the day. The Ferret's guns recharge way faster. Most light fighters can be taken out in seconds with well aimed shots (and the guns are close to the centerline so you don't actually end up missing half the shots like in the Rapier). The shields recharg fast and it's speed means you can get in and out of harm's way in a hurry... you just have to make sure you don't run into anything in the meantime. The lack of missiles on the ferret never bothered me much since you don't usually have to fly it missions where you're out-classed all around.

[Deacan]

Originally Posted by Wedge009

Because it wasn't really necessary or effective? Devastators need agile fighter protection to counter its low speed and manoeuvrability.

Well... You understand me wrong. Of course we need fighters to protect the heavy Devs, but instead of cut the fighters missilelayout from pure dogfight to wildweasel (giving them more antiturrets- and less antifighter missiles) I would prefer a pair of shrikes come in: with 20 HARMs they could just take out the turrets and leave the battlefield.
I would like to have as much HS, IR, FF or what ever type of antifighter missiles on my fighters as possible...

Just my 2 cents.