WC2: is it just me?

[Highball]

So, I just passed the first mission of K'tithrak Mang on WC2, but not before having to play it 10 + times. Is it more difficult in these missions, since it's pretty much end of game? The Jalkehis guarding the cap ship I was sent out to destroy in the Sabre were all of the sudden like Kilrathi SUPER FIGHTERS. They took MASSIVE amounts of damage without dying, could out maneuver and out fly me like it was cool, and were cracker jack shots. Flying the Broadsword, the Jalks were nothing. Just toys to sweep out of the way, too slow and un-maneuverable to keep away from me for long, even with no afterburners.

Flying the Sabre, which has better guns and better maneuverability, I was getting ruined out there. Jazz would always be shot down, and any time I'd get a Jalkehis on my right VDU, I'd plow through him until he was ALL RED. All red, and still taking shots of full guns without dying. I felt like I had to hit one over 15 times with all four guns to kill it, and it wasn't even half as hard in the Broadsword.

You don't even know how far my heart sank when I finally killed all the Jalks and nailed the cap ship, only to get back to the Concordia to find 3 Grikaths waiting. Suffice it to say, I was ready to thank God when the Concordia shot them all down before I could even get in there to engage. I was on debug mode by this time, thinking that I was about ready to cheat to win, but decided to give it ONE MORE RUN without cheating before I went down that road, so was it this reason that the Griks went down so fast to the Connie's guns?

Is this just me? Is it the Sabre not having as much armor as the Broadsword? Or is it that there's some increased difficulty in K'tithrak Mang?

[AD]

I think you are overlooking the refire rate of the guns. THe beauty of the broadsword's guns is that the triple mass drivers recharge really fast . Also, some of the ace ships in WC2 cheat by having special stats to make them tougher.

Also, I always found the sheilds and armor in the sabre to weak. You can line up a lot more shots in a broadsword when you aren't quite as worried about taking quite as much enemy fire.

[Highball]

Originally Posted by AD

I think you are overlooking the refire rate of the guns. THe beauty of the broadsword's guns is that the triple mass drivers recharge really fast.

This is true; I had a great many prime shots lined up that I could not make because my guns were not heating up for re-fire very quickly.

Originally Posted by AD

Also, some of the ace ships in WC2 cheat by having special stats to make them tougher.

Now that's interesting! Though, I only put the cheat mode on the last time I tried the mission, then decided not to employ it even though I'd put it in. In all the previous attempts, it was not on, and these measly 4 Jalkehis were tearing me apart like it was cool. There were times when I couldn't even wax one of them before I was ruined.

Originally Posted by AD

Also, I always found the shields and armor in the Sabre to weak. You can line up a lot more shots in a Broadsword when you aren't quite as worried about taking quite as much enemy fire.

Well, I imagine that the Broadsword would not be any less able to get away from enemy fire, but I know it could take more of it than a Sabre. I guess I was always willing to give up the "flying fortress" for something more maneuverable and quicker, not to mention longer range and harder hitting guns. Though, you do bring up an excellent point about the reload time.

Also, since I am running the original game through DosBox, has anyone noticed really slow running when you have several enemy ships to take out? 4 or 5 fighters plus a cap ship usually makes DosBox run slow, slower than I remember playing the game back in the day. Even when I reduce the frame rate to 2/60, it's still really slow. Is this just a case of emulation taking more computing power than was originally needed to run the game on a machine built for it? The rig I use to play these games is a junk yard PC that was given to me by someone when I moved here to Tulsa, along with a copy of Diablo II so I wouldn't go crazy when I didn't have a TV or any furniture.

[AD]

Originally Posted by Highball

Also, since I am running the original game through DosBox, has anyone noticed really slow running when you have several enemy ships to take out? 4 or 5 fighters plus a cap ship usually makes DosBox run slow, slower than I remember playing the game back in the day. Even when I reduce the frame rate to 2/60, it's still really slow. Is this just a case of emulation taking more computing power than was originally needed to run the game on a machine built for it? The rig I use to play these games is a junk yard PC that was given to me by someone when I moved here to Tulsa, along with a copy of Diablo II so I wouldn't go crazy when I didn't have a TV or any furniture.

More ships equals more AI and therefore more CPU usage. Are you using the Auto cycles option? WC2 DOS actually has a frame limiter (though it doesn't seem to work so well with the cutscenes). So a solution to slugish flight is to use dynamic core instead of auto and up your cycle setting.

[Chernikov]

Has anyone tried VirtualPC or VirtualBox with a DOS install? The system requirements for WC 1 and 2 are not any significant %age of what a modern or even near-modern computer has available - DOSBox may simply not be the ideal solution.

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by Highball

Is this just me? Is it the Sabre not having as much armor as the Broadsword?

The Sabre does not have as much armor as the Broadsword. The B's got several times more powerful defenses. It's really really quite a tank in WC2.

[Mincemeat]

I find the Jazz gets shot down by the Ralatha (just like any other AI sabres during a torpedo run).

In terms of dogfighting the sabre was quite a shock to me the first time I played the K'tithrak Mang missions. However taking into consideration the number of missions that you fly in the sabre before that, that shouldn't be too surprising.

I'm sure you'll master that ship by the time you finish Special Operations 1...

[Highball]

Well, I just finished K'tithrak Mang flying the Sabre. Now, I played it back when I was a kid, but I did not remember what the difficulty was like. Sparks outfits my ship with, what was it? 6 torpedoes? I figure the starbase will take at least 4 to blow up, otherwise I wouldn't have so many.

SPOILERS BELOW.

So I take out the Strahkas in the asteroid field, no problem. I get to K'tithrak Mang, and it's Prince Thrakhath. Shoot, taking down Jazz was more difficult, but that's not saying much. Prince Thrakhath was like fighting a tutu wearing ballerina. Whatever. Then the wing of Drakhai piloted Sarthas. Whatever. I am expecting a wing of Grikaths or Jalkehis to jump in, at this point, and nothing happens. I figure, ok, maybe when I take out the starbase, I will be swarmed into retreat.

Nope, the base takes TWO of the six torps I am given, and I immediately win the game. Is it just me, or was that EASY PEASY? There were missions during the game that felt like they were 5 times as hard as that. That was a cake walk!

[Kaunisto]

I think WC2 is the easiest of old WCs; well maybe even with WC1. But whole different thing than any missions disks.
I've played it dozen times through and besides the losing paths missions that you never get unless on purpose, I've never found any mission particularly hard. In worst case had to try 3-5 times, but never 10. That only happens in SM2 or SO1.

Broadsword is clearly superior to any other WC2/SOs ship, even crossbow. Sabre isn't as good as raptor & rapier in WC1.

The last missions is a funny thing, sometimes it's just that easy, but sometimes the sarthas seem awfully hard (but maybe I've just hit an asteroid or something).
Anyway I've found Thrakhath harder than Jazz.

[Highball]

Yeah, Jazz didn't make it easy. I didn't actually shoot him down, I ran into him (or he ran into me) by accident, and that damage was enough to take him down. Thrakhath was no problem. Shoot, there's a mission I played in Special Operations 1 where I am flying an Epee against several pirate-flown Confed ships, and that mission took me more than 6 plays to get past, and I had to avoid the asteroid field with 2 pirate Epees on the way back because I didn't figure I was in good enough shape to take them on. That regular mission felt 5 times harder than the end of WCII regular play.

Here's something funny, though! I was playing that mission last night, and my two wingmen, Sky and Shelton, had survived for a long time, to the point where we had taken down all but one of the 6 pirate Epees that took down the distressed Fralthra. We're flying around, and I am just trying to stay out of their way so the friendly AI doesn't shoot through me to get at the enemy Epee, and then they both just randomly exploded. They had this friggin' Epee on the run, it wasn't firing at them. Then, out of no-blasted-where ... boom. Do they have an expiration date or something? They just blow up after so long in the mission?

[-danr-]

Originally Posted by Highball

They had this friggin' Epee on the run, it wasn't firing at them. Then, out of no-blasted-where ... boom. Do they have an expiration date or something? They just blow up after so long in the mission?

I suspect it was because you were watching them when they went out of range, you might have noticed on WC1 and on WC2, that if you're watching ships out of your rear window, or any view, they'll explode if you fly all the way to the next navpoint, leaving them behind but still watching them out the back.

The same happens if you press the object-view button, and fly out of range whilst still watching them, they explode.

I don't know if it's a glitch or if there's a practical reason for it.

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by Highball

Nope, the base takes TWO of the six torps I am given, and I immediately win the game. Is it just me, or was that EASY PEASY? There were missions during the game that felt like they were 5 times as hard as that. That was a cake walk!

The thought was that maybe the original intention was to also include a Rigakh in that mission http://www.wcnews.com/news/update/8249

[-danr-]

Originally Posted by ChrisReid

The thought was that maybe the original intention was to also include a Rigakh in that mission http://www.wcnews.com/news/update/8249

Thanks for the link.

That would have been exceptionally cool.

[Delance]

The first time I played the losing path on WC2 I thought Thrakkath's flagship was leading the assult, but it was just a regular Ralatha.

[Highball]

Ok, I have to ask again: is it just me?

I am on the last mission of Special Operations 1. I have to take down two Fralthras, and I have three wingmen when I get to the Nav Point they are situated at. Ok, so there's 4 Confed ships and 4 Gothris, plus 2 Fralthra. That's too much emulation going on; the gameplay is slow and hard, and I can't fire my missiles. I take down the Gothri with ship's guns, and all three of my wingmen are either killed or run, EVERY TIME. Fine, I just have the two Fralthra to deal with now.

So, what were once floating targets are now mega carriers with the ability to blast me out of space in ONE. STINKING. SHOT. These two blue spheres of energy are coming toward me; I try to avoid, but no. Every time, ka-blam. I can't even get out of range to make a torpedo lock, as they are following me to get back into range! At this point, my ship's weapons have no effect. I can't get a torpedo lock, because I can't keep the targeting reticule over the target long enough, or it will shoot and kill me in ONE HIT with their magical super mega kill everything in one hit no matter which way you come at them guns. How the hell am I supposed to win this mission?

Also, when I fight the two Sarthas at Nav 1, they have become ultra killer fighters, where they were mere annoyances before, and manage to tear me the hell up before I even get a couple shots off. This messes up my HUD, and I get to the Fralthra nav with my armor/shield display displaying full everything all the time. No numbers for shield strength. I have no idea what kind of condition my ship is in the whole time. Is there any way to rectify this?

[Ilanin]

Originally Posted by Highball

Ok, I have to ask again: is it just me?
So, what were once floating targets are now mega carriers with the ability to blast me out of space in ONE. STINKING. SHOT. These two blue spheres of energy are coming toward me; I try to avoid, but no. Every time, ka-blam. I can't even get out of range to make a torpedo lock, as they are following me to get back into range! At this point, my ship's weapons have no effect. I can't get a torpedo lock, because I can't keep the targeting reticule over the target long enough, or it will shoot and kill me in ONE HIT with their magical super mega kill everything in one hit no matter which way you come at them guns. How the hell am I supposed to win this mission?

Me, in the comments to this mission on the CIC's guide:

More usefully, the trick when torpedoing the crusiers is not to fly straight at them. You can lock a torpedo as much as 15k away, do so, fly in at as much of an angle (about 20 degrees or so) as you can without losing lock. When you hear the AMG's fire, swing around to 20 degrees the other side of the crusier and they'll probably miss, then AB in to ~6000km and fire the torp. Repeat.

It's the hardest mission in WC2 + expansions, it's not impossible though. I also really hate my wingmen in this mission due to how much they love firing through me.

A Broadsword, Sabre or Morningstar can actually survive the double AMG hit once, though this probably depends on how much friendly fire battle damage you've taken.

[Highball]

Thanks, llanin, for the advice. Though, I am loathe and ashamed to admit that I had to cheat in order to pass this mission. I played the mission over 30 times, and I'd say that over 20 of those times, I was killed by friendly fire before the enemy could finish me off. The rest of those times, I was either killed before I could just have the Fralthras to deal with, and in the maybe 3 times I was able to kill all the fighters and prepare to deal with the Fralthras in the way you advised, I would be killed. Once, though, I managed to get one carrier in front of the other, and only one could shoot at me, a feat I was not able to duplicate, for whatever reason. I killed one carrier, and the other one subsequently shot me down while I was afterburning from one side to the other. It hit me WHILE I WAS MOVING FROM LEFT TO RIGHT.

Amazing!

After almost my 40th try, I gave up. I was in tears and shaking with frustration. I was very frustrated and upset that I could not win the mission on my own. This aggravates me very much, but seriously? Why make a mission so hard that the average player spends hours and hours on it, only to still be frustrated after countless humiliating defeats? WHY!? I didn't mind the Ralari mission in WC1 that is, for the most part, unwinnable, because your winning or losing the entire game did not hinge on winning that mission. It was okay, because you could make up for it. If you fail to bag the Fralthras in this mission, you lose the game!

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by Highball

After almost my 40th try, I gave up. I was in tears and shaking with frustration. I was very frustrated and upset that I could not win the mission on my own. This aggravates me very much, but seriously? Why make a mission so hard that the average player spends hours and hours on it, only to still be frustrated after countless humiliating defeats? WHY!?

That was video gaming for a good chunk of years back then.

Originally Posted by Highball

I didn't mind the Ralari mission in WC1 that is, for the most part, unwinnable, because your winning or losing the entire game did not hinge on winning that mission. It was okay, because you could make up for it. If you fail to bag the Fralthras in this mission, you lose the game!

One thing you can do with WC2 is play with the frame limiter. You can juice up the cycles quite a bit on modern computers now, which gets WC2 running pretty quickly. The game has a built in frame limiter so it won't run too fast, but then you can manually adjust the limiter to slow it down in a controlled way (as opposed to DOSBox jerking around due to insufficient cycles). ALT+ and ALT- is how you adjust.

[Highball]

Originally Posted by ChrisReid

That was video gaming for a good chunk of years back then.

I guess I just can't understand the logic. A mission that determines whether you win or lose the game being so difficult that someone would play it close to 50 times and still not pass. Like I said, the Ralari mission in WC1 doesn't bother me, because winning or losing the entire game isn't based on the outcome of that mission. I just can't understand for the life of me why a game designer would make this type of mission prohibitively difficult, so much so that the average player might only win the mission once out of 100 tries.

I thought WC2 was supposed to have a difficulty adjuster that could sense how many times you had attempted a mission, and would lower the difficulty depending upon how much trouble you were having. Is this not the case? I was able to lower the enemy AI from 5 down to 0 and still could not beat this mission. Is there any way to decrease the difficulty of WC2, like there is in WC3?

[ChrisReid]

Originally Posted by Highball

I guess I just can't understand the logic. A mission that determines whether you win or lose the game being so difficult that someone would play it close to 50 times and still not pass. Like I said, the Ralari mission in WC1 doesn't bother me, because winning or losing the entire game isn't based on the outcome of that mission. I just can't understand for the life of me why a game designer would make this type of mission prohibitively difficult, so much so that the average player might only win the mission once out of 100 tries.

Yeah, I probably got to the original Mario Brothers world 8-1 a hundred times back in the eighties, but I never did finish the game. The whole game, if you didn't warp zone it, took hours to finish, and you couldn't even save. The actual WC2 game was more forgiving than Special Operations - the expansions (both SM & SO) were somewhat considered open season for crazy difficult missions.

Originally Posted by Highball

I thought WC2 was supposed to have a difficulty adjuster that could sense how many times you had attempted a mission, and would lower the difficulty depending upon how much trouble you were having. Is this not the case? I was able to lower the enemy AI from 5 down to 0 and still could not beat this mission. Is there any way to decrease the difficulty of WC2, like there is in WC3?

Hmm, I don't think so.

[Wedge009]

Originally Posted by ChrisReid

Yeah, I probably got to the original Mario Brothers world 8-1 a hundred times back in the eighties, but I never did finish the game. The whole game, if you didn't warp zone it, took hours to finish, and you couldn't even save.

Once I'd finished the games a few times, I'd enjoy taking whole day to play every single level from start to finish, during the school holidays (I mean primary/high school, not university). This was for all three Super Mario Bros. I still have them and the NES, if I had time to boot them up again...

[Kaunisto]

I've played SOs about 10 times and it's never taken me more than 15 tries to win (though sometimes it may have been the easier first to-win mission). But that was mostly with my oooold PC, with game running very slow.

Fralthras never were a great problem for me, just take lot of patience and bit of luck. But of the fighters I really can't say how one time they just happen to finally die.

Still, those missions are the two worst there are, including every WC 3/4/P mission on nightmare.