We Need You! (April 23, 2008)

[Bandit LOAF]

Next month, members of the CIC staff will be assisting in a project to restore and archive a large amount of historical data from Origin Systems, which surely includes some fascinating lost Wing Commander elements... and we need your help! Are there any data recovery experts out there who might be willing to provide their expertise for this project? Take a look at these three types of backup media -- do you know how to read them? If so, please let us know!

--
Original update published on April 23, 2008

[JasonRocZ]

Woooa Stone age discs!!!!

[Kevin Caccamo]

Oh wow... You have those?

I wonder if any of them contain source code!

[Royal_Marine]

The first one, Syquest HD cartridge requires a syquest drive to read it, you just slot the cartridge in like a floppy disk drive. I actually have one in a box of bits, but it's in England, so probably not much good to you, surely can't be that hard to find them they're not that old,95/96 I think.

[Taser8]

The middle one is an Exabyte digital tape. I actually have one of these laying around somewhere with some of my Wing IV stuff on it; I've tried a variety of ways of recovering it to no avail.

To complicate things further most of the graphics done for Wing III, IV, and beyond were done on Silicon Graphics machines running Irix (their proprietary Unix OS). You can occasionally find a super-discount SGI machine (an Indy or Indigo II) on eBay but if you investigate that route make sure it's got the OS installed and included.

[Drizzt Do Urden]

Wow, I haven't even seen that type of disc before

[Worf]

A SyQuest and a backup tape... alas, I have a Iomega Ditto drive that was given to me, but no power supply nor cables/software, nor any info if that would read it.

I do, however, have an SGI Indy machine with IRIX installed on it.

[Ghibli]

The SyQuest disc can be read by an SQ5200C drive, according to Wikipedia.
I have found a store which sells those (and other kinds of legacy data storage stuff):
http://www.pacificdatastorage.com/sq5200c.asp

[cff]

The first one is pretty easy, but specific. Its a special drive that reads it as other said.

The second one sure is a streamer tape. From the picture I am not sure how exotic it is, so it is hard to say which streamers would read it. As Worf said, the Iomega Ditto was one of the most compatible streamer tape readers in existance. I think I still have one in a backup machine of mine, but it wasn't used for a decade and I personally wouldn't trust it with a valuable tape.

The third one I've never seen or heart of.

[Ghibli]

I have managed to dig up some info on the IBM tape.
It is a 9-track tape which was sold in three capacities (21 MB/45 MB/170 MB).
I guess tapes like that were most commonly used on IBM mainframe computers, but there are apparently also SCSI tape decks which can read those:
http://www.vinastar.com/html/9track.htm

There are also some companies (e.g. http://www.dataconversionresource.com/), which offer data conversion from such tapes onto more contemporary media.

Either way, I suspect getting the data off this one will be rather expensive.

[Lofwyr]

First one is a 200MB SyQuest, I do have a functioning drive for those - but would not be of much help as I live in Germany
Would be interesting in what format it was written (could be anything from DOS to Unix).

Seond one is an Exabyte Tape - question is, in what format was it written to? tar or some sort of proprietary format. The capacity ranges from 2,3 to 7GB native. I do have 2 drives, but...

Third one looks like a standard 9 track tape - IBM and other manufacturers of mid range to big iron system use(d) them not so long ago. It was a long time standard for data exchange.

[Dundradal]

The Syquest SZ555 has been acquired. My father has one that I'm going to send on its way to the guys tomorrow.

It sounds like there is some really, really great stuff on those....

[Bandit LOAF]

Thanks for the help, guys! As Dundradal says, it sounds like a SyQuest drive is on the way -- so that's one down!

The SyQuests were probably the big one, but the Exabytes are a close second - I doubt we'll find something affordable to read the IBM tapes, and there were only two of those total.

To complicate things further most of the graphics done for Wing III, IV, and beyond were done on Silicon Graphics machines running Irix (their proprietary Unix OS). You can occasionally find a super-discount SGI machine (an Indy or Indigo II) on eBay but if you investigate that route make sure it's got the OS installed and included.

That's very interesting - prices do look very reasonable... but I worry that an SGI Indy is a lot like a beautiful woman -- once I had it I wouldn't know what to do with it. That said, if it meant recovering some Wing Commander IV models I'd be happy to watch for one to send your way!

The Exabyte cartridges in this haul look rather old - as you can see in the picture, that one is from 1992... who would know what type of backups Origin was doing that long ago?

[Taser8]

I also happen to have dat drive that I think will read that exabyte tape, though I might be wrong - I purchased it in an attempt to get data off my tape backup. I'd be happy to send it on to anyone who could make use of it...

[Zor Prime]

Found this for the EXATAPE. Pulled it off an ebay auction.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-Exabyte-Tap...QQcmdZViewItem

This looks like the right drive for that tape. (EXB-8500 or EXB-8500c)

There is also a wikipedia article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data8

Hope it helps! Can't wait to see whats on these!
======================================== =

EXB-8500 and EXB-8500c Specifications
These specifications are for the EXB-8500 and EXB-8500c 8mm tape drives.

About the EXB-8500 and EXB-8500c
The EXB-8500 and EXB-8500c 8mm tape drives use helical-scan recording technology and read-and-write head pairs to achieve an uncompressed data transfer rate of 500 KB/sec. The EXB-8500c extends the performance of the EXB-8500 to a 10 GB capacity at a 1 MB/sec transfer rate (compressed). The EXB-8500 reads and writes 8200 and 8500 formats; the EXB-8500c writes 8200, 8200c, 8500, and 8500c data formats. The tape drives are designed to perform onboard error correction and error recovery, along with full read-after-write verification to ensure data integrity.

The tape drives are available in two configurations: as internal tape drives and as external drives that provide the convenience of a standalone peripheral.

Data handling
Capacity:
(8mm EXATAPE, 112m)
EXB-8500: 5 GB
EXB-8500c: 10 GB (compressed)*

Recording method:
Helical-scan

Compression method:
Improved Data Recording Capability compression algorithm

Data transfer rate:
500 KB/sec, uncompressed
1 MB/sec, compressed*

Device reliability (mean time between failures):
MTBF: 40,000 hours

Data integrity:
BER: <1 in 1017 bits
Reed Solomon ECC

[Darkmage]

anyone got a costing on that ibm tape drive?

[Zor Prime]

Here's a good article about older IBM 9 track tapes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9_track_tape

[Ghibli]

Originally Posted by Darkmage

anyone got a costing on that ibm tape drive?

They have a couple of 9-track tape drives with SCSI interface on eBay for prices ranging from $675 to $1200: here, here, and here

Also, here is a list of various 9-track tape drives, which lists (for most of them) if they have a SCSI interface: http://www.cpuinc.com/9track.html.

[Bandit LOAF]

Woah, quite a bit of money for one of those tape drives... and I'm not sure I'd know how to use it even if I did throw $700 at one (well, okay, I'm quite sure I *wouldn't* know how to use it...). I'll also throw this out there -- if there's someone with experience in working with this type of media who would like to come along for our trip then they're invited!

Does anyone know what paying a recovery service to transfer the tapes might cost? Or if there are places that might rent the drives? We're looking at only two of the 9-track tapes (and they're unlabeled, so they could be anything...)

I do think my feeble non-techno-brain is getting used to planning out how the 8mm drives will work - so thank you very much for that!

I also happen to have dat drive that I think will read that exabyte tape, though I might be wrong - I purchased it in an attempt to get data off my tape backup. I'd be happy to send it on to anyone who could make use of it...

That would be great! If you send it to me then I'll take it to EA and then return it to you. I don't think there's a big rush at this point - they're still trying to find us a block of days to do the job. It won't happen until late May or June.

(I know you're in Virginia on occasion, too -- if you happen to be around when we're doing this project then you're more than welcome to come dig through Origin stuff with us...)

[Worf]

Originally Posted by Bandit LOAF

That's very interesting - prices do look very reasonable... but I worry that an SGI Indy is a lot like a beautiful woman -- once I had it I wouldn't know what to do with it. That said, if it meant recovering some Wing Commander IV models I'd be happy to watch for one to send your way!

Like I said, I do have an SGI Indy collecting dust on my shelf... I don't have a monitor for it, nor much use for it (other than occasionally playing with an old version of Unix).

I suppose I can let it go if someone wants it.

[Bandit LOAF]

Howdy folks,
I bought a new deck for transferring VHSes to DVDes for the EA mission (two boxes contained VHSes) and I've spent Saturday playing with it. W e now have as-high-quality-as-possible transfers of:

* Wing Commander Academy, 13 Episodes
* Savage Dragon, Episode "Endgame"
* Wing Commander Movie EPK
* Wing Commander IV German Raw Footage - Reel 7
* Wing Commander Movie Rough Cut (4/7/98)
* Wing Commander Movie Rough Cut (7/11/98)

I'm going to spend tonight transferring the rough cuts a few more times, since I have to send those two tapes back to their donor. Jetlag recommended doing several passes.

The WCAs look amazing - much nicer than the DivXes. I'm glad I bought nice tapes all those years ago!

[Blaster]

Does this mean we’ll be able to download higher quality versions of the WCA episodes from the CIC soon?

[Bandit LOAF]

I can't necessarily promise *soon*, but we are working on it!

Data recovery costs either per megabyte or per medium. You might opt to restore not the files, because you couldn't read them, but all te raw data blocks. 0's and 1's.

The tapes, if well-preserved, should all still be capable of allowing you to produce the data stored on them, but this depends on how many times they have been used.

You might try your first five hits on google that turn up on data recovery, most of them have a no-cure-no-pay procedure.... meaning you'd only pay shipping costs if they can not solve your problem.

[Blaster]

Originally Posted by Bandit LOAF

I can't necessarily promise *soon*, but we are working on it!

Awesome!

[Dundradal]

The Syquest was put in the mail yesterday! Hopefully it arrives intact (I put a shitload of bubblewrap around the thing but that was the largest box we had at work that wasn't obscenely too big).

[Bandit LOAF]

Originally Posted by Dundradal

The Syquest was put in the mail yesterday! Hopefully it arrives intact (I put a shitload of bubblewrap around the thing but that was the largest box we had at work that wasn't obscenely too big).

You mean you found something at work that *wasn't* obscene ?

[Dundradal]

Haha. I guess that's all in the eye of the beholder....

[Kevin Caccamo]

WHOA! If you have that many boxes, at least one of them could contain backed-up source code!!

[Mr.Smiley4]

Oh, 9 Track? Sorry to say, but you are so fucked. If NASA is having problems finding the right 9 Track drives for their backed up data, you're going to have lots of problems finding the ones you need.

I actually have a SyQuest drive, but it's the 88mb variant (SQ5110). According to Wikipedia though, it's SQ5200C compatible (200 MB). Do you need any more? Because I have don't have any more tapes for it, and it's been sitting in my basement for years.

EDIT: BTW, my brother made a Linux program last year specifically for backing up 3.5" floppy diskettes. It does matter how big they were originally formatted, they just need to be IBM formatted. He might be able to change it depending on how the diskettes were formatted, but I don't know for sure.

Also, for backing up VHS tapes, you might also want to try different VCRs. Each VCR is different, and therefore will have different up and downs. Just make sure the VCRs you use are Hi-Fi Stereo too. Try to also limit the passes you do, because VHS tapes loose a little quality every time you play them. Also, how are you transferring them to DVD? Are you using a DVD recorder or something? Please explain so we can help you if you're doing something wrong by accident.

[Dundradal]

Originally Posted by Mr.Smiley4

I actually have a SyQuest drive, but it's the 88mb variant (SQ5110). According to Wikipedia though, it's SQ5200C compatible (200 MB). Do you need any more? Because I have don't have any more tapes for it, and it's been sitting in my basement for years.

You may want to keep it handy in case the drive I sent doesn't work out. I sent the 44 mb model (which also can read 88 and 200 MB carts). LOAF should have mine by the end of the week but I don't know if he can test it until later on.

[Bandit LOAF]

Oh, 9 Track? Sorry to say, but you are so fucked. If NASA is having problems finding the right 9 Track drives for their backed up data, you're going to have lots of problems finding the ones you need.

Ahhh -- but I've got a $600 tax credit, so I have a bigger government budget than NASA. No, I really wasn't holding in to much hope of reading the 9-tracks -- there are only two of them and they aren't labeled... so they're both the hardest to get at and the type of media with the lowest priority.

I actually have a SyQuest drive, but it's the 88mb variant (SQ5110). According to Wikipedia though, it's SQ5200C compatible (200 MB). Do you need any more? Because I have don't have any more tapes for it, and it's been sitting in my basement for years.

Hey, yeah -- it can't hurt! Any equipment people loan us will be sent back as soon as the project is over. I saw 44MB, 88MB and 200MB disks while I was there.

EDIT: BTW, my brother made a Linux program last year specifically for backing up 3.5" floppy diskettes. It does matter how big they were originally formatted, they just need to be IBM formatted. He might be able to change it depending on how the diskettes were formatted, but I don't know for sure.

That might not help here... I've been talking to the guys who ran Origin's Creative Services department and they say that the SyQuest drives are most likely Mac formatted. We've dug up a PowerMac 7300 for them, though!

Also, for backing up VHS tapes, you might also want to try different VCRs. Each VCR is different, and therefore will have different up and downs. Just make sure the VCRs you use are Hi-Fi Stereo too. Try to also limit the passes you do, because VHS tapes loose a little quality every time you play them. Also, how are you transferring them to DVD? Are you using a DVD recorder or something? Please explain so we can help you if you're doing something wrong by accident.

Great, I'm flying blind with most of this stuff We currently have two methods for transferring tapes -- one is to use a Canopus ADVC-300 analog/digital converter to connect a VCR (Hi-fi, 4 head, S-Video out) to a Firewire input. The other quicker option (which I've used with good results recently) is one of these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015ADR1I -- record the video to a dual-layer disc with the highest quality setting and then rip the DVD later. Obviously we'd like to do things in as close to best quality as possible, but we're also looking at four working days total to access the material at all. If there are fifty VHS tapes, we have to do some planning for speed (most are *probably* short interviews - some will be raw game footage).

[Mr.Smiley4]

It's all good in the hood so far then. Also, about the SyQuest drives: Do you have the software for them? Cause I don't have mine. See: my dad bought it at a garage sale years back, and we most likely threw the software away for ours since my mom made us dump all of our old computer equipment back in 2001. All we had left was a big box of 3.5" floppies we backed up and threw out last year, and I don't think the driver software was on any of them.

[Dundradal]

I was able to locate some of the drivers a week or two ago. Although I have no idea what I did with the links. Syquest was back online up until 2003 it looks like. There are some "generic" drivers that I found that I think will work with the models we've got. Otherwise we'll have to hit up a lot of classic mac forums and hopefully find a donor.

EDIT: I FINALLY have internet at my new house. Moving can be such an awful, awful thing.

[Lofwyr]

For the sysquest Drive:
it depends on the interface, but no driver needed:
- if SCSI, find some cheap PCI-Card and a cable (don't forget the terminator), it will be recognized as "removable media", no matter if it's format is readable (using Linux will give you far more options than plain old Windows
- if IDE, same but with other cable - here it may be recognized as "fixed disk media"

The 9-track is a bit tricky, but the tapes NASA is having problems with, are much older - 9-track was used for over 20 years to exchange data in commerce, it stopped, as far as I know, 8 years ago, or even less.

So, the raw data should be readable, the logic format OTOH...

Best to read all those media on an operating system, that doesn't mess with the data (unix, linux, ...) - but never with windows.

[Dundradal]

LOAF has the package arrived yet?

[Bandit LOAF]

Yes, the package is here, thank you very much. I haven't even opened it yet, though, I've been exceptionally busy this week (hence the lack of CZ posts).

[Darkmage]

take a linux machine in anyway. One thing I've noticed linux is ridiculously good at is reading data from almost anywhere, especially old obscure formats. I don't know whether or not older linux would be more or less helpful with it but I've found a ton of file systems supported under linux including amiga disks, apple formats both new and old, ibm mainframe filesystems and even the 3do opera disk filesystem. Another tool in the belt is always a good thing.

[Bandit LOAF]

All we need is someone in the Washington metro area who knows how to use Linux...

[Bandit LOAF]

Howdy gang,
We've just heard some news: it sounds like this is going to happen at the end of June or in the first week of July. Hurray!

[PopsiclePete]

Watch Ben and the CIC crew while they embark on a whole new adventure where there will be no nazi, no femme fatale, just Originite archeology !

The adventures of Ben Lesnick:
Raiders Of The Lost Origin Treasures

June 2008, only on the CIC



I can't wait to see this one

[Dundradal]

Originally Posted by Bandit LOAF

Yes, the package is here, thank you very much. I haven't even opened it yet, though, I've been exceptionally busy this week (hence the lack of CZ posts).

Ok great to hear. Continue to fight the good fight for these treasures!

[Bandit LOAF]

I just realized that I haven't really explained to you folks some of the things we'll be recovering -- I'll try and write a little narrative for my livejournal later... but here are a few things I saw:

* The design document (including character sketches and 'in universe' history) for "Wing Commander: Phantom Force", a post Secret Ops concept.

* CDs labeled "Privateer 3", "Privateer 3 Artwork" and "Privateer 3 Docs" - on the top of a collection of ~500 backup CDs.

* A copy of Technosaur, a cancelled FPS that involved dinosaurs and tanks.

* A book of Privateer Online artwork/sketches.

* VHS tapes of game footage - could Wing Commander III be among them?

... and 'Earth and Beyond' shirts being used as packing material. I guess it did come in handy after all.

[NinjaLA]

sounds phenomenal!

[Capn Johnny]

Yeah, I'm really curious about the Phantom Force docs..

is it something from after I left..?
something I've forgotten about in my old age?
or something that I have intentionally tried to erase from my mind?

[Bandit LOAF]

My three seconds of looking at it left me with the impression that it was post-Secret Ops. The cover was a pretend "CLASSIFIED - TCIS BRIEFING MATERIAL" page done in the WCP/WCPG manual style of text. When I first picked it up I thought it might be a printout of the WCSO fiction, even.

(I'm not entirely sure but I *think* 'TCIS' is a concept that you folks came up with for Secret Ops. The usage here reminded me of some of the second-attempt Privateer Online background material which drew heavily from things mentioned in WCSO...)

[Bandit LOAF]

Hey gang! Good news - we have a date! Our team deploys on July 21st! Anyone interested in coming along?

[Dundradal]

Great news LOAF! I wish I could but I'll be in the middle of writing my thesis so I can't spare a single off day. I hope all goes well and that drive let's us have access to some great WC material!

[PopsiclePete]

Wohoo ! I'l be anxiously waiting for details of your findings !

[JasonRocZ]

Stoked!!!!!!