Well I said that Confed chose Hellcats as Blair flies a Hellcat and we see Hellcats at the introduction. Moreover, there is an allusion in the novel. That being said, I am certain there are Arrows around as they were not dismantled. It would make sense in a post-war economy to standardize assembly lines and I guess that would mean in practice less fighter types, especially since Hellcats and Arrows partially overlap in functionality.

I agree about Dragon/Lance being the equivalent of an F-22. About the rest, we should draw specific comparison criteria I think.

So the young self still lives in you? 😛😛
 
There are Confed Arrows on WC4 they are Purple Themed , alongside the Pirate ones , so definetely there are Arrows .
In the Novel Border Worlds use older Confed ships as well.

You are right about standardize assembly lines but we see less than a decade later that Confed has several new ships in Prophecy and for different more specific roles (like Wasp) .
They still use the old Thunderbolts and Excaliburs though... It is a vast universe afterall.

In my Country we still Use F4-Phantom and some years ago we had operation A -7 corsair and F-5 Freedom Fighters!

Wing Commander is my safe space :P !
I am my old young self when I talk about WC and when I play WC.
I love that feeling that is why I am still here 23 years later. Best community ever
 
It is a vast universe afterall.
Absolutely, such a change won't take place overnight. Especially since fighters go to operators like the Border Worlds or to pirates.

Wing Commander is my safe space :P !
Same here!

In my Country we still Use F4-Phantom and some years ago we had operation A -7 corsair and F-5 Freedom Fighters!
Also Mirage 2000 in older times and before that F-104s. Now Rafales and modernized (?) F-16s.
 
Well - Be that as it may. For me, the Hellcat V was always the equivalent to the F-14 in some ways: Maneuverable enough to hold its own, sturdy and robust design but also a bit clunky..
So for the Hellcat VI, I always thought of a mixture between F-16 and F-18: Good Maneuverability and speed, huge weapons load and still good enough armor…
 
But the real reason why I went over my design again was that I was stuck, but couldn’t point the finger on what was troubling me - also it scratched my ego, that it wasn’t done all by myself. That I had other people do parts on my model…
Then „CountvonSchnaps“ gave me a some good ideas and I thought: Ok - let’s restart, but this time with no outside help!
 

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Well - Be that as it may. For me, the Hellcat V was always the equivalent to the F-14 in some ways: Maneuverable enough to hold its own, sturdy and robust design but also a bit clunky..
So for the Hellcat VI, I always thought of a mixture between F-16 and F-18: Good Maneuverability and speed, huge weapons load and still good enough armor…
Yes, I think the F-18 is a good equivalent of Hellcat in terms of maneuverability and firepower as well as fleet function.
 
Also Mirage 2000 in older times and before that F-104s. Now Rafales and modernized (?) F-16s.
We still use Mirage 2000-5 , the older BGM/EGM ones are retired. Also a lot F-16 are now V (viper) Variant you are right.
You sure now a lot about HAF 😳
 
Well - Be that as it may. For me, the Hellcat V was always the equivalent to the F-14 in some ways: Maneuverable enough to hold its own, sturdy and robust design but also a bit clunky..
So for the Hellcat VI, I always thought of a mixture between F-16 and F-18: Good Maneuverability and speed, huge weapons load and still good enough armor…

F-14 was a superiority fighter and an old one by the time F18 was out , so I thought Rapier would be a good F-14 candidate. Hellcat looks like a low cost mass produced fighter like F-16
 
F-14 was a superiority fighter and an old one by the time F18 was out , so I thought Rapier would be a good F-14 candidate. Hellcat looks like a low cost mass produced fighter like F-16
For me WC1 Rapier gave off F-14 (or Mig-29!) vibes as it is agile and designed for space superiority. Raptor was more like F-15 and the Centaurian mud pig was something like F-4, though the latter was respected and loved unlike Scmitar.
 
We really dont know how old these fighters are , there are no designations ( except the *StarSolider pdf that released with Wing Commander Arena and mostly is more a fan service from BanditLOAF and others ) .

They both show up on Wing Commander Academy, so they're fairly well established by Wing Commander III! I don't think Confed chose one or the other; they seem to serve together regularly. The original Wing Commander III lore (which gets referenced in the novel) was that the Arrow was a "Light Fleet Defense Fighter" and the Hellcat was a "Medium Interceptor". The Hellcat was supposed to have a longer range and generally be a sturdier platform. The original ship descriptions--which imagine WC3 taking place in 2676--had the Hellcat as 7 years old and the Arrow as 16 years old. The Hellcat does get a designation when we first see it in WC3: F-90D. So even without Academy, it wasn't supposed to be new in Wing Commander III.

Well I said that Confed chose Hellcats as Blair flies a Hellcat and we see Hellcats at the introduction. Moreover, there is an allusion in the novel. That being said, I am certain there are Arrows around as they were not dismantled. It would make sense in a post-war economy to standardize assembly lines and I guess that would mean in practice less fighter types, especially since Hellcats and Arrows partially overlap in functionality.

The Lexington has an Arrow squadron in the novel! One of them crashes and destroys the catapult which disables the ship.

There are Confed Arrows on WC4 they are Purple Themed , alongside the Pirate ones , so definetely there are Arrows .
In the Novel Border Worlds use older Confed ships as well.

WC4 has three Arrow models: normal Confed ones with green markets, Black Lance 'cloak' ones with purple markings and then the stolen pirate ones that were red and blue. (You also see one in the big losing cinematic where the fleet descends on the Border Worlds.)

(But also there are new Arrow types in Arena thirty years later so Confed is definately still in the Arrow business!)
 

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Ben this always bothered me , I know you want to make 1 big continuinity , but it is easier to consider
the MOVIE , the Games and the Show 3 seperate timelines , or else it is a big headache and some times it doesnt make sense.

Hellcat is old but not that much , if you consider F44 Rapier was brand new in 2654 and in WC2 era the new ships Wraith and Morningstar are F97 - F95 respectively this means Hellcat is about 5 to 8 years old maximum.

What bothers me is for example F44 Rapier is brand new , it has a completely new look in WC2 and named Rapier II (even though for continunity we consider the original Rapier , Rapier II too ) but the designation is the same , so it doesnt make sense for Wing Commander Academy to have Hellcat with F-90 designation even if it is the V variant .

Also I dont see anywhere else the designation of the Hellcat V except for a brief moment in the png you uploaded, maybe it was a mistake ? I am not sure
 
Hellcat is old but not that much , if you consider F44 Rapier was brand new in 2654 and in WC2 era the new ships Wraith and Morningstar are F97 - F95 respectively this means Hellcat is about 5 to 8 years old maximum.
In general maybe we should take fighter designations with a pinch of salt, at least if we consider real world facts like the transition from the century series to the teen series, the fact that the Sabre and the Super Sabre had different designations (F-86 and F-100 respectively), or the unification of the fighter designations in the US. Also, as someone more in the know once said (or will say!) "Look, the Confed is a much bigger machine than any of us can possibly imagine", so I wouldn't exclude some inter-agency quarrel about designations.
 
Moreover, I recall reading somewhere (probably not in the CIC, so some sort of apocrypha I guess) some in-universe lore about a legal fight between the design bureaus of Crossbow and Longbow (the latter was McCall Industries IIRC) as the former claimed that the latter unfairly exploited the Crossbow fame using a similar-sounding name falsely implying that the Longbow was a continuation of the successful (mmmmm not really IMHO) Crossbow design. Thoughts @Bandit LOAF?

Also speaking of Longbow I find really cool the fact that it evolved from a shuttle design 🔥🔥
 
Ben this always bothered me , I know you want to make 1 big continuinity , but it is easier to consider
the MOVIE , the Games and the Show 3 seperate timelines , or else it is a big headache and some times it doesnt make sense.

Well, think about it this way: it's completely true that when we first saw the Arrow in 1994 there was no thought that it might appear again years later or years. No one expected those stories would happen and it's entirely possible to consider the Arrow in Wing Commander III without any of that 'future history'. We certainly have the nuance to look at it there and work out what the designers were thinking and what they expected us to know.

At the same time and for the same reason, it's absolutely impossible to take the Arrow as it's presented three years later in Academy or twelve years later in Arena without considering its appearances in WC3 and 4. When you watch Red and Blue and you see the Arrow, you're seeing a choice to put it there that goes back to its creation, a choice to connect the reader back to WC3. It's a conscious choice to reference the thing that already exists and to connect to (part or all) of that lore and meaning. It's a progressive, iterative thing instead of a bunch of separate bubbles.

So taking that top down look is necessary, it's a lingua franca that's necessary for talking about stuff in a community. If you ask about the history of the Hellcat in general then the only way to answer that question is with the things we know about the Hellcat! But like I said, we've got the nuance too... we can go back and look at WC4 without Arena or WC3 and what things were supposed to mean at that point in the real world timeline. The Wing Commander movie using the idea of the Rapier for something new doesn't invalidate the story existing in the form it did at one point. And we can always drill down and think about that!

But there's a lot of contamination, too, because we tend to come up with a story we like and then stick to it without realizing. Consider the Rapier as you mentioned it! "Rapier II" is something that gets added in the Kilrathi Saga manual and it's the result of someone in creative services trying to combine the three manuals two years after the fact... Wing Commander I that has no designations, Wing Commander II that has American-style ones and Wing Commander III manual that lists those fascinating Roman numerals (Hellcat V, Thunderbolt VII) but not prefixes. They opted to strip the WC2 designations and in the process thought it would make sense to make the Rapier match how they thought the WC3 ships were being listed: the fifth model of the Hellcat, the seventh model of the Thunderbolt.

But that's not how either name was intended to work when it was created! Wing Commander II doesn't call it the Rapier II at all... the WC2 manual identifies it as the "F-44G Rapier" and it's only ever just Rapier in the script. The intent in 1991 was that it was supposed to be the seventh-plus iteration of the design; that it was brand new in 2654 but now it has a long history that we can assume. They didn't redesign the ship itself thinking it was the second one, they thought it was what it would look like after seven smaller cumulative updates over time (... with the additional request from legal that it move away from looking so much like the Firefox).

(It's worth pausing here because it's also super interesting how they tell this story. The designations in the manual themselves are all wonderful little stories told through your understanding of contemporary American military designations... the Rapier is the old one, the Sabre is brand new, the Broadsword is something new and special. But the Rapier story goes into the game itself: the similar cockpit, the lack of ITTS... you've got every department on the dev team working together to make sure people implictly know the Rapier is old! That's classic Chris Roberts tell-the-story-through-immersion!)

But then even Wing Commander III wasn't intending 'Hellcat V' to mean 'the fifth model of Hellcat fighter' in 1994. When the ships were dreamed up by Chris Douglas, someone with a complete understanding of how aircraft designations work, they had the American prefixes. They're visible in WC3 itself in the videos! F-90D Hellcat V on Rachel's console, F-103A Excalibur on the PAD at the bar, etc. So when the Hellcat was created in 1994 the idea was that it was the fourth model of a somewhat older ship that also happened to be the fifth ship design ever named Hellcat (like P-47 Thunderbolt/A-10 Thunderbolt II and the like).

So you see we can look really closely and say: here's the idea they had at this point... but it's often going to be very different from the one we've put together in our heads!


Hellcat is old but not that much , if you consider F44 Rapier was brand new in 2654 and in WC2 era the new ships Wraith and Morningstar are F97 - F95 respectively this means Hellcat is about 5 to 8 years old maximum.

What bothers me is for example F44 Rapier is brand new , it has a completely new look in WC2 and named Rapier II (even though for continunity we consider the original Rapier , Rapier II too ) but the designation is the same , so it doesnt make sense for Wing Commander Academy to have Hellcat with F-90 designation even if it is the V variant .

Also I dont see anywhere else the designation of the Hellcat V except for a brief moment in the png you uploaded, maybe it was a mistake ? I am not sure

Let's look at this in a few different ways!

You mention the Wraith and the Morningstar but their designations are both just from Star*Soldier, the same place as the F-27 for the Arrow. So if we just want to think about designations when the Hellcat was named, we can look at what existed then and why.

The prefixes were first established for WC2 in 1991 and like I mentioned earlier they're all intended to tell a little story about the decade between the games. The Rapier is old now, the Sabre is brand new... things like the Broadsword and the Ferret are new to Blair but they're older ship designs, the fifth iteration of each. So you're going in in media res with your character intentionally being behind the times.

F-44G Rapier
F-54C Epee
F-57A Sabre
P-64D Ferret
A-17D Broadsword

And then Special Operations added the YA-18A Crossbow in dialogue, which is a nice reminder that Chris Douglas knows his stuff!

At the same time they went back and retroactively gave designations to the WC1 ships in the licensing bible. They're all chosen to suggest that they're 'before' the WC2 ships:

F-32 Scimitar
F-36 Hornet
A-14 Raptor

Going into Wing Commander III they had knowledge of only those and they chose:

F-66 Thunderbolt VII
F/A-76 Longbow
F-90 Hellcat V
F-104A Excalibur

(I am certain Chris Douglas would've picked a designation for the Arrow but it has never surfaced.)

And we get a service date for each one!

Arrow - May 11, 2660
F-66 Thunderbolt VII - December 25, 2665
F-90 Hellcat V - September 12, 2669
F/A-76 Longbow - July 24, 2673
F-104A Excalibur - March 17, 2676

And what do you know, they match up to the designations perfectly! But it's pretty unsatisfying right off, isn't it? Because this is the version of WC3 that exists in Chris Roberts' head in 1994 which is set eleven years after Wing Commander II... it's only after the fact that the folks doing the manuals decide it's actually two years later but that's the version we know and that every successive story follows.

But just thinking about this tells us a lot about the intent which is still pretty fastinating! The Arrow has always been old, imagined to be fifteen in WC3! The Hellcat is an older ship but it's just half that. And the Longbow (3) is much newer than it's eventually presented as in Arena.

With that thought through we can unlock the rest of the continuity and look at these designations in the context of what comes later.

Which is also fun to do! I made a spreadsheet that might help which tracks the Confed fighters' known designations and the known bounds for when they're in service. It doesn't answer all our questions but it's a start: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Y-ma6sYRA9X3N9E95xFubpcxzKabyn2hnWR0gy6JHVQ/edit?usp=sharing

And yes you can see all the wrinkles where one later creator misunderstood (or intentionally disregarded) a previous one. Scrunching WC3 into 2669 leads directly to the Star*Soldier designations. The Wraith and Morningstar and Phantom and such are in the 90s because they're all "new" shortly before the Excalibur which was a hard F-103. But if they'd been given designations in 1994 they would've been in the 60s, after WC2 but well before WC3. And we'd instead think of the Wraith being a contemporary of the Thunderbolt! Paths not taken.

But the same way you can go through and pick out the oddities you can come up with stories for them too... after all, real military designations are not exactly orderly, either. Maybe the Hellcat was the P-90 patrol fighter and was redesignated a fighter... maybe it was a militia design that wasn't adopted by the Confederation until later on... maybe there's an older numbering system and everything reset at some point like it did in the US in the 1950s... maybe it's something like the F-117 where the designation is there to confuse the enemy! Endless possibilities.
 
Nice write as always Bandit , I completely understand how you see it and how actually Douglas and the developers saw it and it makes sense .
I had similars thoughts in the past , my very first post 23 years ago was about something similar .

I had the Kilrathi Saga manual and I tried to make sense about WC2 and WC3 ships and why there are so many differences in so little time .

Anyway I will try to wrap up my thoughts (my limited English vocabulary doesnt help) and post again :P
 
Maybe the Hellcat was the P-90 patrol fighter and was redesignated a fighter... maybe it was a militia design that wasn't adopted by the Confederation until later on..
So the militia is not part of the navy, WC2 and Privateer make that clear, but does it have a central command? And one which has the budget and the authority to commission studies and procure ships independently? I thought it was more localized in score and function.
 
(...) The Hellcat was supposed to have a longer range and generally be a sturdier platform. The original ship descriptions--which imagine WC3 taking place in 2676--had the Hellcat as 7 years old and the Arrow as 16 years old. (...)
um ...@Bandit LOAF: Did the war against the Kilrathi, and therefore WC3 not end in 2669? ... Or did I miss something?