[Needaham45]

I'm half Lebanese, so I may be a bit biased... but this is my basic understanding (I could be wrong)

During Lebanon's Civil war, they asked Syria to help regain control. Syria complied, and never left. While the Lebonese people are in control of the country, The presense of a Syrian millitary force sometimes can detract from the country's wishes, so it's not the country chosing to be the puppet it is, it's the Syrian Occupation forcing that condition on them.

Also, from what I understand it is not Lebanon supporting the terrorists, but the Syrian millitary inside the country that Lebanon can't do anything about in its current state.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what the situation is. At least, that's what my family's explained to me and what I gather from what I've studied of the area.

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Frosty
Unlike every other Arab country in the region, Turkey happens to be fairly intelligent and reasonable, on the whole. They won't go attacking people all willy-nilly-like, that's just something some anti-war nut made up to scare people.

1. Turkey is NOT an Arab country. They're a completely different ethnic group.
2. Intelligent and reasonable are funny terms to use for a country where governments usually change through military coups.
3. Turkey has made several military incursions into northern Iraq during the past decade, so the argument that they won't do anything stupid is moot.
4. And of course, there's the Cyprus issue. Every once in a while, Turkey still makes threats about annexing northern Cyprus.

Oh, and Ghost, the only terrorists (if you can even call them that) Lebanon has supported are those that fought to liberate Lebanon from Israeli occupation. And they had every right to do so.

 

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Quarto
Oh, and Ghost, the only terrorists (if you can even call them that) Lebanon has supported are those that fought to liberate Lebanon from Israeli occupation. And they had every right to do so.

Hamas,Hezbollah aren´t terrorist groups?
And you think that they fought to liberate Lebanon from Israel?
Quarto, watch the TV, read the papers Israel isn´t in Lebanon territory since like 2 years ago when they retreated to the frontier pre-1982.
They fight to kill every jew (and read it well, it´s jew not israeli) In Israel. even more the majority of them are Palestinians not Lebanese
And how is that they aren´t terrorist groups?.
I have some respect for you, but boy, that is the stupidest thing that you ever said (here)

edited-grammar

 

[Frosty]

I'm going to ignore Needaham45's post, because replying to that would be chasing my tail, which would be silly. Everything I said in my first reply to him basically covers his last post as well. Moving along...

Originally posted by Quarto
1. Turkey is NOT an Arab country. They're a completely different ethnic group.

Right, whatever, I'm not going to bother checking your facts here, just remove the "Arab" from my sentence and get over it.

2. Intelligent and reasonable are funny terms to use for a country where governments usually change through military coups.

Everything is relative, and compared to their neighbors, they're pretty damn reasonable and intelligent.

3. Turkey has made several military incursions into northern Iraq during the past decade, so the argument that they won't do anything stupid is moot.

No it isn't, unless by "moot," you mean "not moot at all." We attacked Germany once, HOLY SHIT, WE COULD DO IT AGAIN AT ANY MOMENT.

4. And of course, there's the Cyprus issue. Every once in a while, Turkey still makes threats about annexing northern Cyprus.

And I make threats about killing my roommate in his sleep, but I never do it.

Oh, and Ghost, the only terrorists (if you can even call them that)

Terrorists are terrorists whether you think they're the good guys or not.

Lebanon has supported are those that fought to liberate Lebanon from Israeli occupation. And they had every right to do so.

I don't know if Isreal "occupies" any Lebanese land or not, because like I said, I'm not interested in checking your facts, but if they do, it's because they won that land in a defensive war against unprovoked attacks by their neighbors.

We don't call Texas an occupied territory, because we took it fair and square, and that rule applies to Israel as well. If anyone has a problem with that, tough luck; they should have considered that before starting a brawl.

 

[Needaham45]

Isreal withdrew from the Lebanese land they took over a few years ago (except for a tiny bit at the southern most end... I think). Also, if memory serves, they went in chasing terrorists that were attacking Isreal that were in no way affiliated with the Lebanese government, and Isreal decided to stay once they were there.

And btw Frosty, by telling me your ignoring it shows you actually aren't.

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Frosty No it isn't, unless by "moot," you mean "not moot at all." We attacked Germany once, HOLY SHIT, WE COULD DO IT AGAIN AT ANY MOMENT.

Wow, that's really logical. Yes, let's all compare events which happened repeatedly during the last decade with something that happened sixty years ago. Brilliant idea... or maybe not.

Originally posted by Ghost
Hamas,Hezbollah aren´t terrorist groups?
And you think that they fought to liberate Lebanon from Israel?
Quarto, watch the TV, read the papers Israel isn´t in Lebanon territory since like 2 years ago when they retreated to the frontier pre-1982.

Wow, thanks, I didn't know that... or did I? Maybe that's why I used the past tense in my post?
Seriously though. No, Hezbollah is not a terrorist group. Hamas is, but that's a completely unrelated matter, since Lebanon does not support Hamas.
Furthermore, Hezbollah still has the right to fight Israel, which continues to hold Lebanese prisoners. The (extremely infrequent) attacks by Hezbollah on Israel should be seen in the context of Hezbollah trying to capture enough Israeli prisoners to force Israel into an exchange. They don't even attack civilians. Oh, I do think it would be much better just to negotiate - but they did try, and it was a futile effort.

They fight to kill every jew (and read it well, it´s jew not israeli) In Israel. even more the majority of them are Palestinians not Lebanese

That's really horrible! Except that it's bullshit. The only Jews that were in Lebanon during the past thirty years or so were Israeli soldiers. And maybe some non-Israeli Jews who work in the country... whom nobody tries or even wants to kill.
As for the majority of them being Palestinians, not Lebanese... well, I don't see how that would make them terrorists .

I have some respect for you, but boy, that is the stupidest thing that you ever said (here)

I could say the same thing about your post . Now, you can call my posts stupid if you want, but at least have the decency to do some research first.

 

[T8H3X11]

First off I want to say that I whole heartedly agree with LOAF. We know that he has bio-weapons and he has used them on his people. He has to be hiding something if he won't let the UN proceed with weapon inspection. So what gives us the authority to take him out? If he is talking about using these weapons of mass destruction against the U.S. do think should remain dormant until something happens? The Bible says (that's right I'm a Christian) that we are to drive out evil. And yes I Believe Saadam is being used by the devil and believe that he must be drawn out. Now about the issue with us having Nuclear Weapons and so forth. It's not hypocritical to not let Saadam obtain Nukes even if we have them. We have not proposed to use them and in any event they are last and final option. And we significant evidence to believe that Saadam would use them against us. So why wouldn't we try to stop him. It goes all the way back to June 6, 1944 (Allied Invasion) . We didn't just let Hitler and the Nazis march over the earth while Einstein told us that Hitler was working on an atomic weapon of mass destruction . We went in their and we took his butt out. If he succeded then we we probably be saying gutentag to each other. So it's the same thing now, we have to take him out now before it's too late.

 

[Skyfire]

They had an article on AOL news a while ago, saying that 100% of Iraqi voters wanted Saddam still in power. Um, anyone ever heard of 100% of people wanting ANYTHING? Can we say rigged?

 

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Quarto

No, Hezbollah is not a terrorist group. Hamas is, but that's a completely unrelated matter, since Lebanon does not support Hamas.

I don´t really give a shit about what you call terrorism, they are terrorist even if you don´t want it. or if they cause is just or not. terrorism is terrorism. And yes Lebanon (directly or indirectly) and Syria and Iran support them.

Originally posted by Quarto
Furthermore, Hezbollah still has the right to fight Israel, which continues to hold Lebanese prisoners. The (extremely infrequent) attacks by Hezbollah on Israel should be seen in the context of Hezbollah trying to capture enough Israeli prisoners to force Israel into an exchange. They don't even attack civilians. Oh, I do think it would be much better just to negotiate - but they did try, and it was a futile effort.

No, they have Palestinian prisoners, member of Hamas,Al-Fatah and Hezbollah.
Extremely infrequent? tell that the the people who lives in the cities and kibutzim in the north of Israel (Afula,Kiryat Shmona among others) who are *rocketed* by Katyusha missiles launched by Hizbollah and Hamas from the south of lebannon (those rockets have a range of 60 km approx.) almost every week
And Hamas and Hezbollah never negotiated with Israel, they don´t negotiate with a country that doesn´t have the right to exist...

Originally posted by Quarto

That's really horrible! Except that it's bullshit. The only Jews that were in Lebanon during the past thirty years or so were Israeli soldiers. And maybe some non-Israeli Jews who work in the country... whom nobody tries or even wants to kill.
As for the majority of them being Palestinians, not Lebanese... well, I don't see how that would make them terrorists .

Eh?, i´m talking about jews in Israel (btw they made lot of terrorist attack around the world, like the one in the AMIA in Argentina, the AMIA is an asociation of jewish comunities in Argentina, they don´t have anything with Israel,it is an Argentine asociation who works for christians too, but as i saids they attack jewish targets.).
They being Palestinians is an example, they don´t fight for Lebanon, they fight to eliminate every jew in Israel so they could have all the country., but that quote of you really don´t make sense as an answer to anything that i said.

Originally posted by Quarto

I could say the same thing about your post . Now, you can call my posts stupid if you want, but at least have the decency to do some research first.

Believe me i my make research every week, you at least try watching the TV news channels and read the newspaper. i don´t have this info from a secret link of the CIA or the MOSSAD, just i see what happens around me.

 

[Excelsis]

Hey Terror is terror. Whether it is from a car-bomb, a plane crash, a missle launch, or even a rogue sniper. Terrorists must be dealt with swiftly and decisively. There should not be one American in favor of leniancy on the DC Sniper. I don't hear anyone going, Oh we should get a coalition of together and debate whether the sniper is dangerous or not. Everone knows he's dangerous because he has killed 9 people. I hope they shoot him when they find him. One bullet just like he's done to all his victoms. Same thing with Sadaam. We know he's dangerous because he's killed thousands of his own people. And as he gains the capacity to use Biological and nuclear weapons he WILL use them. When we get Sadaam, he should face War crimes and be executed. As for the rest of these posts about Israel and Palestine, when was the last time you heard of a Jewish suicide bomber? I would venture to say you have NEVER heard of one. Jews are not terrorists, they are fighting terrorists.

 

[Needaham45]

Originally posted by Ghost
I don´t really give a shit about what you call terrorism, they are terrorist even if you don´t want it. or if they cause is just or not. terrorism is terrorism. And yes Lebanon (directly or indirectly) and Syria and Iran support them.



No, they have Palestinian prisoners, member of Hamas,Al-Fatah and Hezbollah.
Extremely infrequent? tell that the the people who lives in the cities and kibutzim in the north of Israel (Afula,Kiryat Shmona among others) who are *rocketed* by Katyusha missiles launched by Hizbollah and Hamas from the south of lebannon (those rockets have a range of 60 km approx.) almost every week
And Hamas and Hezbollah never negotiated with Israel, they don´t negotiate with a country that doesn´t have the right to exist...

First of all, what's the difference between an organized millitary and an organized malitia, both making an assult? Absolutely nothing. So why is the former called an Army, and the latter called a terrorist group? If your going to call Isreal's force an army, then you need to call Hizbollah an army. If you want to call Hizbollah a terrorist group, then you have to call Isreal's force a terrorist group. It's that simple, in my opinion.

Also, I have heard of Isreal keeping Lebanese prisoners. I'm pretty sure that they do.

Just because rockets come from Lebanon doesn't mean it's Lebanon's fault. Syria is occupying there, keeping any Lebanese resistance to terrorists to a minimum because they won't allow it. My relitives in Lebanon hate the terrorists who launch rockets into Isreal, but there's nothing they can do about it... so why does the wrath fall on Lebanon? It's not there fault that they can't do anything. And when Isreal decides to attack them, that weakens Lebanese resistance to the terrorists even more.

And I think that with Isreal constantly flying mock bombing runs over Lebanon to scare the crud out of the civilians there doesn't exactly send a good message to the Lebonese...

When all the Palistinains have to fight for there freedom with is there own lives, I really can't blame them for the suicide bombers. Yes I think it's crazy... but so is the situation they're in. Its rocks against tanks.

I also did a bit of research... and what I could find was that Iraq used gas on some of it's own people in the 60's and 70's... around the same time the US was testing drugs on it's own without consent...

 

[Bandit LOAF]

First of all, what's the difference between an organized millitary and an organized malitia, both making an assult? Absolutely nothing. So why is the former called an Army, and the latter called a terrorist group? If your going to call Isreal's force an army, then you need to call Hizbollah an army. If you want to call Hizbollah a terrorist group, then you have to call Isreal's force a terrorist group. It's that simple, in my opinion.

An organized military represents a nation... an organized militia does not... it's... a pretty *simple* difference.

I also did a bit of research... and what I could find was that Iraq used gas on some of it's own people in the 60's and 70's... around the same time the US was testing drugs on it's own without consent...

Then you're just very, very bad at researching. A quick Googlsearch reveals plenty of sites about Iraq's use of chemical weapons in the late 1980s...

 

[Needaham45]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
An organized military represents a nation... an organized militia does not... it's... a pretty *simple* difference.

Your not reading into it far enough (my mistake... I should have been clearer). The point I was trying to make was that people tend to consider organized millitia terrorists, when organized military would be an army. Yes, they are representing different things, but when you think about it, they really are the same thing - an organized group designed to protect and fight for the group that organized them. Who is organizing them may be different, but in the practical sense, they are the same thing.

Then you're just very, very bad at researching. A quick Googlsearch reveals plenty of sites about Iraq's use of chemical weapons in the late 1980s...

I asked a teacher who has been following the region very closely for 20 someodd years... she seems to disagree. I'm not saying that she is right and you are wrong, I'm just letting you know where I got that fact so you know I'm not BSing some stuff. I will investigate further as soon as I get the chance.

 

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Needaham45
Just because rockets come from Lebanon doesn't mean it's Lebanon's fault. Syria is occupying there, keeping any Lebanese resistance to terrorists to a minimum because they won't allow it. My relitives in Lebanon hate the terrorists who launch rockets into Isreal, but there's nothing they can do about it... so why does the wrath fall on Lebanon? It's not there fault that they can't do anything. And when Isreal decides to attack them, that weakens Lebanese resistance to the terrorists even more.
...And I think that with Isreal constantly flying mock bombing runs over Lebanon to scare the crud out of the civilians there doesn't exactly send a good message to the Lebonese...

Then it seems that Lebanon only exist as a national entity, nothing more, not a state..
So is ok to have a rebelion against Israel (who doesn´t hold any lebanese territory anymore) but not against Syria who controlls your entire country and way of life_

No, Israel only attack the Terrorist Camps inside Lebanon, not cities like Sidon,Tyre, in the terrorist camps live palestinians and terrorist who live/hide between the normal population (not terrorist), there is nothing that Israel can do about it.

Originally posted by Needaham45

When all the Palistinains have to fight for there freedom with is there own lives, I really can't blame them for the suicide bombers. Yes I think it's crazy... but so is the situation they're in. Its rocks against tanks.

That is the point, you don´t really need to fight for your life, just sit at the *talk table* and let the talk begin.
Rocks?
who use rocks, AFAIK they use machine guns,SMG,rocket launchers, molotov bombs, and the ones used to make their terrorist attacks.
The only ones who uses rocks are the kids, but what are they doing there, send them to school.
BTW why the terrorist attack the civilians and not the Army bases,AFB....just because they are terrorist, they have better international news coverage if they attack a bus,later they hide between the civililians (palestinians) and Israel must chase them with tanks, and they use the kids in front as a shield in the manisfestations.

 

[Needaham45]

Originally posted by Ghost
Then it seems that Lebanon only exist as a national entity, nothing more, not a state..
So is ok to have a rebelion against Israel (who doesn´t hold any lebanese territory anymore) but not against Syria who controlls your entire country and way of life_

No, Israel only attack the Terrorist Camps inside Lebanon, not cities like Sidon,Tyre, in the terrorist camps live palestinians and terrorist who live/hide between the normal population (not terrorist), there is nothing that Israel can do about it.

First off, Lebanon is at a very weak point right now. They can't stage a rebellion... besides... part of the rebelion against Isreal was Syrian... it wasn't just Lebanon.

And what about Isreal bombing Beruitt... the capitol city a while back? How was that attacking a Terrorist (or do you mean Reffugee) Camp?

Besides... with Isreal attacking Lebanon, it would be a little hard to rebel against anyone.

 

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Needaham45
First off, Lebanon is at a very weak point right now. They can't stage a rebellion... besides... part of the rebelion against Isreal was Syrian... it wasn't just Lebanon.

And what about Isreal bombing Beruitt... the capitol city a while back? How was that attacking a Terrorist (or do you mean Reffugee) Camp?

Besides... with Isreal attacking Lebanon, it would be a little hard to rebel against anyone.

Maybe they attacked Beirut once, a year ago or two.
But they don´t attack Lebanon (Beirut specifically) like the 1982 or 2 years ago.
The Question is: Do the Lebanese really want to rebel against Syria, there are many ways, first go to the U.N.

 

[Needaham45]

I've honestly lost faith in the UN. Arab nations have gone to the UN before, and even if something is ratified there (which is unlikely considering the US's biases), there is no way the UN can enforce it without the US's help (and with those biases, that basically never happens).

 

[Skyfire]

Originally posted by Needaham45
Your not reading into it far enough (my mistake... I should have been clearer). The point I was trying to make was that people tend to consider organized millitia terrorists, when organized military would be an army. Yes, they are representing different things, but when you think about it, they really are the same thing - an organized group designed to protect and fight for the group that organized them. Who is organizing them may be different, but in the practical sense, they are the same thing.

I don't know if you can really make that statement. Militia's are second string units. Tend to be used to keep the peace, and if necessary on the front lines, are support/reinforcements for the actual military. While I see your point in saying that they are (kinda) the same thing, it seems like you would have to have an organized, national, army before you can start trying to use militiamen. (But, not knowing extensively about the politics in the area, I won't venture into whether there is an organized force, as such. Mind, I do think it needs to be recognized by the government, none of this "Independent Liberation Army" crap.)

Originally posted by Needaham45
I've honestly lost faith in the UN. Arab nations have gone to the UN before, and even if something is ratified there (which is unlikely considering the US's biases), there is no way the UN can enforce it without the US's help (and with those biases, that basically never happens).

That's what happens when your a superpower, you have to do a good deal of the work. Had/should the Arab nations been playing police for the last few decades, it would be the reverse. That's unfair to try to say that the US is the reason things don't get done in their favor when you could make a reasonable arguement that they should have just done more, before we became so involved in policework. (And that is just one of the different arguements one could use to combat that viewpoint.)

Oh yeah, so you know-I'm anti the American police effort, I just see why we do it, and that we tend to help keep the "peace" in the world. (To steal the cop term.)

 

[Quarto]

I apologise in advance for a far-too-lengthy post. I'll be briefer next time.

Originally posted by Ghost
I don´t really give a shit about what you call terrorism, they are terrorist even if you don´t want it. or if they cause is just or not. terrorism is terrorism. And yes Lebanon (directly or indirectly) and Syria and Iran support them.

Lebanon does not support Hamas, plain and simple.

Anyway, I'm going to explain a bit about my point of view, so that you can understand my thinking. I'm Polish. Over the last 200 years, Poland's had about 30-40 years of freedom from foreign countries. Resisting foreign occupation is a concept ingrained into the Polish mentality practically from birth. Thus, I can understand why somebody would attack civilians in order to attain freedom. I do think it's immoral, but I acknowledge their right to do so. I do not consider them terrorists, because if targetting civilians makes you a terrorist, then all wars are fought between terrorists.

You do consider them terrorists, but you come from a different value system - when was the last time Argentina was under foreign control? If Argentina ever was occupied, though, you'd switch over to my value system pretty quickly.

No, they have Palestinian prisoners, member of Hamas,Al-Fatah and Hezbollah.

Lebanese too. You can be quite certain of that. It's just that you don't hear about them - they've been in prison since the 80s, so I guess they're not exactly newsworthy.

Extremely infrequent? tell that the the people who lives in the cities and kibutzim in the north of Israel (Afula,Kiryat Shmona among others) who are *rocketed* by Katyusha missiles launched by Hizbollah and Hamas from the south of lebannon (those rockets have a range of 60 km approx.) almost every week.

Really? I read the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz every day, and I don't even remember the last time they reported about a Katyusha attack from Lebanon. How is it that Israel seems unaware of these weekly attacks of yours?
Furthermore, Hamas does not operate from Lebanon. They operate from the West Bank and Gaza. And yes, they have launched several rocket attacks lately, but they were from Gaza, and there were no Katyushas involved, just small home-made rockets.

And Hamas and Hezbollah never negotiated with Israel, they don´t negotiate with a country that doesn´t have the right to exist...

Ever heard of the Grapes of Wrath agreement? Israel and Hezbollah agreed not to attack civilian targets. Both sides have violated the agreement a few times, but such violations are definitely the exception, not the rule, for both sides. At various points, Hezbollah has also successfully negotiated prisoner exchanges with Israel (but the success of such negotiations hinges on having Israeli prisoners to exchange). And there have been some indications that negotiations are under way in regards to the Israeli prisoners that Hezbollah currently holds.

Eh?, i´m talking about jews in Israel (btw they made lot of terrorist attack around the world, like the one in the AMIA in Argentina, the AMIA is an asociation of jewish comunities in Argentina, they don´t have anything with Israel,it is an Argentine asociation who works for christians too, but as i saids they attack jewish targets.).
They being Palestinians is an example, they don´t fight for Lebanon, they fight to eliminate every jew in Israel so they could have all the country., but that quote of you really don´t make sense as an answer to anything that i said.

Sorry, I actually didn't notice that "in Israel" bit. Doesn't make much of a difference, though. Like I said, I think killing civilians is immoral, but I also think that it is justified in some situations. For the Lebanese, this was the case - living under occupation seems like a perfectly fair reason to target enemy civilians. The AMIA attack is a more ambiguous case, of course, but so was a certain factory in Sudan.

As for the Palestinians fighting for Lebanon, what difference does that make? The US has many non-citizens serving in their armed forces, but nobody questions their motives for participating in America's wars.
Furthermore, there is nothing to justify the connection you make between "they're Palestinians" and "they fight to eliminate every Jew in Israel".

you at least try watching the TV news channels and read the newspaper. i don´t have this info from a secret link of the CIA or the MOSSAD, just i see what happens around me.

News sources are not enough, and frequently quite misleading. Read some history books. Watch some documentaries. Don't just look at what happens around you, find out why it happens.

 

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Quarto

Anyway, I'm going to explain a bit about my point of view, so that you can understand my thinking. I'm Polish. Over the last 200 years, Poland's had about 30-40 years of freedom from foreign countries. Resisting foreign occupation is a concept ingrained into the Polish mentality practically from birth. Thus, I can understand why somebody would attack civilians in order to attain freedom. I do think it's immoral, but I acknowledge their right to do so. I do not consider them terrorists, because if targetting civilians makes you a terrorist, then all wars are fought between terrorists.

You do consider them terrorists, but you come from a different value system - when was the last time Argentina was under foreign control? If Argentina ever was occupied, though, you'd switch over to my value system pretty quickly.

Then it´s a fault in your educational system ,i can understand your point, but it doesn´t make it more valid or not.
As i said they can attack military bases.
Yes surely i come from a different value system, my parents and teachers taught me to respect the life and the other´s rights.

But that is the problem of them too, they children are educated with the thought that Israel ocupies all the territories of them since 1948. as you can see in every Palestine map.

BTW you are right about Hamas, i confuse it because of the weapon cargo from Iran, disrupted by the IDF, they launch their attacks from the Gaza strip and the West Bank.